Truth, Trauma And Transformation

I am Anna Seewald and this is Authentic Parenting,

A podcast about growing ourselves while raising our children.

I'm a psychologist,

Educator and parent coach and on this podcast I explore how you can connect to your authentic self,

Practice radical self-care and raise emotionally healthy children.

Let's break the cycle of generational trauma for a more peaceful,

Kind and compassionate world.

Today's episode is one of those typical,

Classic,

If you will,

Authentic parenting conversations that I think is a must listen,

Especially if you are a regular listener.

This was such a treat for me as well and it became one of my favorite conversations of this year.

I am positive that you're going to find it greatly valuable.

My special guest is Dr.

Frank Anderson.

He is a world-renowned trauma treatment expert,

Harvard-trained psychiatrist and psychotherapist.

He's the acclaimed author of Transcending Trauma and co-author of Internal Family Systems Skills Training Manual.

As a global speaker on the treatment of trauma and dissociation,

He is passionate about teaching brain-based psychotherapy and integrating current neuroscience knowledge with the Internal Family Systems,

IFS,

Model of therapy.

Dr.

Anderson believes that traumatic events can have a lasting effect on the well-being and life of an individual and that addressing these events will help lead people down a pathway of healing and forgiveness.

Dr.

Anderson is the co-founder of the Trauma Institute and Trauma-Informed Media,

Organizations that promote trauma awareness,

Education,

Integration and healing.

He has a new book out.

It's his memoir and it's called To Feel Loved.

I really devoured his memoir and if you are like me,

A lover of that genre,

I encourage you to pick up a copy.

Today's conversation is super packed with such powerful insights,

Great reminders and uplifting messages.

It's a conversation about trauma,

Healing and transformation,

Finding forgiveness for ourselves and our parents,

Hope and wholeness.

We talked about so many wonderful aspects of trauma and healing.

Can someone truly heal from their trauma?

Is it ever too late to heal from trauma?

Can past traumas ever be triggered again after healing?

And so much more.

Rarely does a trauma therapist disclose their own trauma history,

Yet it's the untold,

Brutally honest and incredibly heartbreaking story of Dr.

Frank Anderson that made him the world-renowned trauma expert he is today.

He has a magnetic and radiant personality.

He's very positive,

Enthusiastic and I really enjoyed speaking with him and having him on the show.

Please enjoy and thank you for listening.

You know,

I want to ask you a little bit about healing today.

You know,

This word healing is so loaded and but before we get to that,

I just want to comment,

You know,

How much I enjoyed your memoir,

To Feel Loved.

You know,

You distilled it into very simple,

Very human,

Relatable terms,

To be loved.

And that one sentence that you have,

Which became a catchphrase,

I know you're nodding,

Which one,

You know,

Trauma blocks love,

Love heals trauma.

I just love that so much.

You know,

It's wonderful that you say that,

Anna,

And I hear it all the time from people.

And it's another one of those phrases that isn't mine.

Okay,

Really take credit for it.

Because when I was writing my second book,

Transcending Trauma,

That message kept coming,

That message kept coming.

Right.

And so I was like,

Yeah,

I think it's great,

Too,

Because it wasn't my original idea.

It was something that channeled to me from a higher place,

Right.

And so when things like that happen,

I'm learning that they resonate on a global scale,

Because it comes from a different place,

Right.

And I don't say that's my idea,

Because it isn't.

It's like I was gifted that sentiment,

That awareness,

That trauma blocks love and connection,

Trauma blocks who we authentically are.

And it is love and connection that heals trauma.

So I feel lucky that the powers that be,

Source energy,

Whatever one refers to that beyond,

I was feel lucky that I was given that phrase to bring to the world.

That's what it feels like to me.

I feel like I know so much about you after reading your memoir.

Yes.

Oh,

My gosh.

Wait,

Sometimes I can get up,

Wake up in the middle of the night with panic,

Like,

Oh,

My goodness,

People are gonna know everything.

And it's true.

Yes.

And then you are very open,

Revealing about everything.

Yes.

But as I said before,

To you,

You know,

My favorite parts were the last few chapters where you wrote in real time,

Almost right as you were dealing with your father's dying and him being frail and ill,

Your descriptions and the way you conveyed the emotions.

Oh,

My goodness.

It brought up so much for me personally.

Beautiful.

I felt so much for you,

For him.

And I could feel almost how you were healing as you were doing it.

It was so potent.

Yeah.

Beautiful.

That make that really does touch me like that's the purpose of the book.

That's the purpose of the book is to,

First of all,

To share the trauma exists.

Right.

But more importantly,

To share the journey of healing and hope for people like this is possible for all of us.

And and I love when I hear feedback like I related to this.

I didn't go through the same thing,

But I can relate.

And that was my biggest hope,

Honestly,

Was that people can identify,

See themselves in my story in some way and resonate emotionally with it.

Right.

That's that's the purpose of it.

Yeah,

I could relate on so many levels.

And I think many people will because what you talk about is relational trauma is that complex trauma that so many people have experienced,

Yet they don't know that they have it,

That they know that there is a name for it.

I think you,

You know,

You being this,

You know,

World renowned trauma expert now opening up about your own story,

It just breaks all barriers.

I think it's really powerful.

So helpful to hear that because that was a part of my mission.

And,

You know,

I've been working with Bessel van der Kolk at his trauma center since 1992,

Like a long time ago.

And I'll tell you,

There was a moment I remember this.

We have these Bessel had his annual trauma conference every year,

Every year.

I think this year I'm going to be teaching at it again at the 45th or whatever.

I don't know how many years he's been doing it for a long time.

And I remember years ago,

Like watching all these experts up at the podium before I was one of the experts at the podium when I was just like the psychiatrist said,

Why is there this big us in them?

Like,

Why are the experts talking about the patients or the clients?

Like,

You don't go into this field without a trauma history.

Like,

Why would you?

Right.

And so I always was struck by this us in them mentality around I'm the expert and I'm going to tell you how to heal.

It really replicates the trauma inequity.

It replicates the inequity that's built into trauma is a better way to say that.

Right.

I mean,

It's a power differential.

And so for me,

Many years later,

As I kind of am an expert now,

To also it's like also be a member of the club feels felt very important to me.

You know,

It felt very important message like,

Yeah,

I do know I've been working in this field for a very long time.

And I feel very comfortable in sitting with people's pain and their trauma and helping them heal.

And by the way,

Here's how I became an expert.

Because of trauma,

And my own journey in healing like that felt important to share.

Yeah,

It's so powerful.

What you just said about that power dynamic.

Yeah,

It's so important.

Well,

There were so many things that touched me in the book.

I'm not going to go in chronological order,

But I want to read a tiny sentence for us to start this conversation.

In chapter 13.

You write this sentence is healing ever complete?

The answer was clearly no.

Life has a way of bringing up different dimensions of our trauma,

Offering us the opportunity to heal at the deeper layer.

So,

You know,

Sometimes I think to myself,

Am I healing?

What is this healing look like?

How do I know if it's working?

Because right?

What are the markers?

How do I know that I have made progress or that my trauma is still there?

Obviously,

It's there,

Right?

I didn't erase it.

But is it going to come and bite me someday in an unexpected way that I don't know?

I have these questions myself often after doing so many years of the podcast and talking about trauma.

When I went to therapy a year ago,

After having done an episode with Dick Schwartz and EMDR people on my podcast,

I'm like,

I should try all those modalities,

You know,

Again and do certain things.

I was filling out the questionnaire for the therapist,

Right?

They have all these online forms.

And my answer to everything was,

No,

I don't have it.

I'm great.

And when I went to therapy,

She's like,

Why are you here?

Like,

None of your paperwork indicates that you're struggling,

That you have depression or something.

I said,

I'm going to be honest,

It's curiosity.

I want to know what I'm not aware of.

Is there something that is bothering me now that I don't know?

So I want to put that out there and hear your thoughts about this healing.

Obviously,

It's not ever complete,

But what is healing anyways?

Yeah,

It's a really important question because,

And I've changed my view of it over the years,

I will tell you that.

Like,

Originally,

When I first started in the trauma field with Beth Sylvander Koch,

We were not thinking about healing at all.

It was more about managing symptoms.

Like,

How do you help manage symptoms?

How do you help people manage them?

People with dissociative identity disorder,

For example,

Used to be called multiple personality disorder for those of us who are old enough.

And we were always about trying to bring them whole again,

Right,

And helping them manage their symptoms.

And then when I got exposed to internal family systems,

And Dick Schwartz was talking about taking these exiled parts of us,

The parts that hold the trauma,

Out of the past and bringing them into the present,

Releasing what they're carrying was like this novel idea for me.

It's part of what made me dive into internal family systems.

And so for a while,

I used to say permanent healing,

Permanent healing,

Permanent healing of emotional wounds.

But I've changed since then,

Because my experience personally,

And the experience of my clients is that nothing is permanent around healing.

And I don't hold that view of permanent healing anymore.

The way I think about it is,

Yes,

When you do healing work,

And what I will say,

Anna,

I've been trained in EMDR and sensory motor psychotherapy,

That it's some modalities don't even do healing work in some modalities do like there's a way to get to those root causes and release what people are carrying.

So I'm always paying attention to which models are managing and which models are truly healing.

And even the models that are true trauma healing models.

Yes,

You can heal that portion of that experience,

That way that happens.

And life circumstances can reactivate it life circumstances can reactivate it.

And my experience of that is when it gets reactivated,

You're dealing with a different dimension of it.

And it's not as intense is not as severe,

And you recover quicker.

But you're learning something new about the original trauma.

And for me,

There's this trauma healing evolution.

There's an evolution,

It almost feels like each time I visit a wound,

I learned a new dimension about it,

I elevate myself to a new vibration.

And it just keeps going.

And it just keeps going.

And so that's the way I see it is because some I was it was two years ago,

I think I was talking to a friend line and I was like,

Well,

Wait a minute,

I healed my physical trauma.

Why is it coming up again,

Like part of me was frustrated and upset about it.

But when I worked through it in my own therapy,

It's like,

Oh,

It's this dimension of it.

Oh,

And I was more available.

I was more present,

My parts felt me and trusted me more.

So it was a whole different layer and level of something.

And that's what I'm sitting with now is that yes,

It comes back.

And it's not the same.

It's something new.

And we keep evolving as we continue to heal.

That's what I said.

Yeah,

That makes so much sense.

I love that.

And what great place for all those traumas and wounds to be reactivated.

But parenting,

Right?

Oh,

Yes.

Oh,

Yes.

You did write about it.

In fact,

It seemed like almost throughout your life,

You did all sorts of trauma healing and all but parenting was the only time when it reactivated you you it threw you off,

Right?

100% like I had,

Excuse me,

Worked my ass off in healing,

Right?

And I was like,

Oh,

My goodness,

I came out.

Oh,

My goodness.

I was in difficult relationship,

Adult relationships,

I found a loving person to be with,

Right?

I was like,

I am good to go.

Like talk about all right,

I've done my healing,

Right?

I was when I quit therapy,

Like,

As I talked about in the book,

I was in an analytic therapy for 11 years,

Five times a week.

Like that's a lot of therapy,

You know what I mean?

And so I was like,

I'm good to go.

Like finally,

Man,

It was 32 years old.

I'm like,

Finally took a break,

Stop therapy,

We decided to have kids,

You know,

And then it got a layer got activated in me.

That was so deep and so profound.

It was a lot of it was pre verbal,

As I learned in retrospect,

Right?

There was no words was so powerful.

And I started acting like my perpetrator to my children,

Right,

Which was and I'll say,

I say this in the book was the moments in my life where I became suicidal.

Like those are the moments when I've witnessed this in my work with my clients,

When you do the thing that was done to you,

There's nothing more horrific about it,

Right.

And this happens over and over again in the parenting journey,

Because we have children to have a corrective experience for them different than what we went through.

Sometimes we want to replicate the jewels and the joys of what we experienced.

But oftentimes,

It's about a corrective experience for children.

And when we do what was done to us,

It brings us to our knees.

And it happens more often than I think people are willing to admit,

Honestly.

And that happened to me,

You know,

It happened to me.

And that's what shot me back into therapy again,

You know,

Because I couldn't bear to do what was done to me.

And I didn't do it to the same degree.

But I did it enough that made me feel mortified.

And that was this,

I learned that's where I learned,

Oh,

My goodness,

We have all been hurt.

And we all hurt others.

That was a very powerful lesson.

And nothing like the parenting journey brought it up for me than that.

That was so powerful.

It is so true.

The story from your book,

I marked that page too.

It was so powerful for me when you know,

After your father's funeral,

You and your mom talk because you know,

Your perpetrator was your dad,

But you didn't know the extent of the damage or the trauma.

And in this very frank telling of your mom,

She says,

Oh,

Frankie,

There was nothing wrong with you.

Your dad and I weren't ready to be parents.

To be honest,

We shouldn't have had kids.

We were too young and immature.

Your father was a full time student in pharmacy school.

In addition to working part time,

He was perpetually stressed out.

He should hit you when you cried,

Even as a little baby in the crib.

And then goes,

I don't know why I guess he thought you needed to be disciplined or something.

And I didn't say anything or stand up to him.

On some level,

I knew he was wrong.

But I never grew up with a father and I didn't know how a father should act.

Oh,

My goodness.

You know,

That is so true for so many people.

Like,

They don't know the extent of the trauma that they went through.

Even,

You know,

I was talking to my client yesterday.

She's like,

Oh,

I just learned that there was a DCPNP,

You know,

Child Protective Services.

This is in New Jersey.

There was a case against my mom when I was two years old.

She's like,

And I'm shocked.

She's like,

But my mom was this amazing mom.

I had a good relationship.

And the perpetrator was her at the time boyfriend who burned this baby,

One or two year old baby.

And she's like,

What does it matter today?

I'm a grown up.

I don't care what happened to me when I was one or two.

But she is in the system herself now many years later,

Because she severely neglected her children and her children being put up for adoption.

And there is no connection,

Right?

And I'm like,

Wow,

This is so profound.

It's one of my biggest messages.

I mean,

There's many messages for me in this book for the world.

There really is.

You know,

It's the first general public offering I've had.

I've done a lot of teaching of therapists how to handle trauma.

But this idea that our behavior,

Our struggles are more often than not rooted in our unresolved trauma.

And most people don't know that.

And like really parenting is a perfect example of that.

It really frustrates me.

And I'm,

You know,

When I raised my children here in the lovely community,

You know,

There was I have a lovely community here in Harvard,

Massachusetts.

It's a great group of people.

And we raised our kids together,

Right?

Takes a village.

There was this normalizing losing it.

Oh,

Everybody loses it.

Oh,

It's normal.

Like we do that in culture and said,

Like,

It's normal to lose it.

And yes,

In some way it is.

However,

There's more to that story.

Yes,

We lose it.

And when we do,

We have to learn about what in us got activated and what in us needs to be healed.

You know,

Kids are for me,

Our greatest teachers,

Because they activate a different layer of things that most of our other relationships do not.

Right.

And so when we lose it as parents,

We do need to take those lose it moments seriously,

Because it's our opportunity for further healing.

And I don't think a lot of parents hold that awareness.

I'm like,

I teach this for a living.

I help coach all my patients.

And here I am doing a version,

Right?

So it was so painful for me.

My husband would say,

You're so hard on yourself.

And I'm like,

You're damn right I am.

Like,

I know.

I know what healthy is.

And when I got activated because of my history,

And then I didn't do healthy,

It was so painful.

Oh,

Yes,

It is.

So true.

I heard a phrase this morning,

Actually,

It said,

Lack of compassion is a suppression of hurt.

Hmm.

Oh,

I love that.

I love that,

Right?

Like,

Because this is what parents do onto their children,

They become their the perpetrator enact what was done to them,

Not because they are mean or bad.

It's because there's something suppressed in them that hurt,

That that blocks that compassion,

That love that you were talking about in the very beginning.

Exactly,

Exactly.

And that is,

You know,

I do parenting curriculum courses a lot in teaching parents,

Like,

When you have an intense reaction,

It is about your unresolved history.

When it's intense,

It's yours.

As we say,

Right?

People don't understand that,

Like,

And I can,

I remember the moments like my kids would be upstairs fighting,

And they're two little boys,

Four years apart,

And they'd be throwing trucks at each other or whatever they were doing,

Right?

Being normal boys,

Right?

But what ended up happening inside of me was terror and panic.

Because the violence and notice the words I even use the violence I witnessed in my boys playing roughly with each other,

Terrified the part of me as a kid,

Who was the recipient of violence.

So I would yell at them to stop them from being violent.

So I didn't have to feel terrified,

Or terrorized again.

So our kids are primitive,

By definition,

They are immature,

Because they're young,

Like hello,

That's where the word immature comes from.

But when we as parents have unresolved issues that we've suppressed,

Our unresolved issues get activated by our children's behavior.

And our instinct is to shut them down or shut them up.

So that we don't have to feel our unresolved trauma again.

And that is that the cycle that is the transgenerational cycle that gets perpetuated if we don't pay attention,

Like,

Oh,

Hey,

Something,

Something's up in here.

And it's about my history that I haven't dealt with,

Like,

Thank you,

Child,

Thank you,

Children,

For bringing awareness to my history,

As opposed to stop that.

So I don't have to feel this anymore.

Yeah,

You know,

I know some parents who have a hard time with that they rather fix their kid or you know,

It's like,

It's a lot easier,

Because they don't know what's gonna come up for them what they're gonna feel,

Right?

It's like,

I always say this phrase,

Like,

We enter into this parent-child relationship twice,

Once as a child,

Second time as a parent,

And the dynamics are the same,

Except this time,

We're the parent and the perpetrator,

And we enact and do onto our kids what was done to them.

And like you said,

It's never to the same degree,

Right?

Our parents did a lot harsher things,

Their parents did a lot harsher things.

It diminishes with,

With like generation and passage of time,

But still unconscious and unexamined.

It's creates so much trouble in our relationships.

Huge,

Totally.

Yes,

It absolutely does.

And I think it's important for parents,

Like you said,

I was always like,

I don't want to read one more parenting,

I don't want to read one more book about how to change the child.

Like there's so many books out there on how to get children to behave.

Right?

And I'm like,

Where in the hell are the books about how to get parents to work on their histories?

Right?

Like,

Yes,

I'm writing that book.

Now.

It's Yes,

I am writing that book.

Are you beautiful?

Beautiful.

And like you said,

People don't want to,

They're like,

Look,

I've having these kids to get away from my history and to make it better.

I don't want to go back there.

So I love that you're writing the book,

Like we need more books about parenting than we do about fixing children.

Yeah,

Yeah.

It's about us,

Right?

It's so much we can do.

And then parenting can feel so easy.

And the strategies,

You may not even need strategies,

Right?

It will come naturally.

100%.

And you know,

Because it really is about loving these people for who they are.

And if you weren't loved for who you are,

Oh,

That's so painful.

It's not as easy to just love somebody else for who they are.

You know,

Like one of the things I talked about in my book,

And it was just fascinating to me.

It's like,

And the writing process really helped me get clarity on this.

Like my parents,

Well intended,

Even though it was very painful for me,

You know,

Put me in conversion therapy.

When I was six years old,

You know,

They wanted to make me like a normal boy,

Right?

It was a disorder to be gay back then,

Of course.

And so I grew up always never being okay with never feeling okay with who I am,

Or never being accepted or loved for who I was,

Right?

So I spent my whole life trying to change myself to be acceptable.

It was fascinating for me.

Fast forward,

Super smart student went to Harvard,

Like I valued education,

It was my ticket out of my abusive household.

I ended up having these two kids,

None,

And we moved to this really the best school,

The top five school system in the state,

Right?

And neither one of my kids are academic students at all.

And to be able to accept them for who they are,

It was like a full circle moment.

Like,

And it was not the same thing.

I don't think either one of them are probably gay,

I don't sense that from them.

One of them is a car salesman,

The other one,

You know,

Is on the spectrum,

And they're not,

I need to see them for who they are,

In the same way my parents needed to see me for who I am.

You know,

My oldest son and I,

I love him dearly,

And we could be nothing further than apart.

Like he likes motorcycles,

And cars,

And mountain biking,

And all the stuff that is not my forte,

Right?

It's forcing me to get out of myself and join him in his world in the same way my parents were forced.

And I was very aware of that,

You know,

And I was like,

It took,

At least I got there sooner than they did,

Right,

Is what I felt.

It's like to really accept them for truly who they are.

I kept saying this with my youngest son,

Who's a neurodivergent,

I was like,

And this was another message that I got in,

And was,

It's not that you need to change him to fit into the world.

It's the world needs to fit into him.

And that was a helpful message for me.

I was working so hard to get him to behave,

To fit in,

But his dysregulated brain was working at a totally different level.

And I was like,

No,

The world needs to accommodate him.

He doesn't need to accommodate the world.

And that's what I was missing growing up.

And that's what my kids taught me,

Right,

From an early age.

So it's important that we learn these lessons is that we learn the lessons instead of repeating the trauma.

Yeah,

Like accepting them fully for who they are.

But again,

Right,

It's like an interesting conundrum.

In order for you to accept your child fully for who they are,

You need to accept yourself fully and have self-worth and no shame.

But where are you going to muster that up if you were not raised that way by a parent who also struggled with worthlessness and shame?

And it's like,

Wow,

This is an interesting cycle,

Right?

That's why we call it breaking the cycle.

Yeah,

Breaking the trauma cycle.

It is.

And that's part of what I do feel good about is breaking that trauma cycle.

It's like,

You know,

I saw myself heading down that path.

And I feel good about being able to take that other direction.

Like,

Oh,

No,

No,

No,

I'm not going to do that.

Like,

That was one of the things and I talk about this in the book,

Nothing that I'm proud of,

But something that I'm aware of is,

You know,

When I started acting,

I was reactive,

And I started yelling at my kids and this and that,

Because they were frustrating me.

I dove into therapy again.

But I also started traveling and teaching.

There was a part of me that was like,

I laughed,

I kind of like,

I got to get out of here,

Because I don't want to harm them.

You know,

And I had this feeling like,

Oh,

My husband is so much more gentle,

You know,

Maybe he won't hurt them the way I am hurting them.

So there was actually a part of me that was like,

Getting into therapy to fix this,

That didn't happen overnight.

And I literally started teaching and traveling more,

I was out of the house more,

Which was good in one way,

Because I didn't want to expose them to my reactivity.

However,

It perpetuated a whole nother piece of things,

Because my father was never around.

So then I started being not around,

You know,

So to get away from one pattern of my father's,

I recreated another.

Isn't that interesting?

I find that like,

Super,

Super,

Like,

Mind blowing.

Yes,

Yeah,

It's like,

Oh,

My God,

Can't get it was like,

I can't get away from repeating this pattern is what it felt like,

To some degree.

And,

You know,

That's where the healing comes in.

That's where the healing comes in,

Like I and now,

I don't need to leave.

And now I am not reactive.

And I have confidence.

Self love,

Self worth,

I'm good,

You know,

And I'm here to help you.

Like,

There's a differentiation.

Now,

You're not me as a kid,

I'm not me as my dad,

You know,

And I really can feel the difference.

And it's only through releasing the trauma that I was able to feel that more authentically,

You know,

As opposed to running away to not harm them,

Or,

You know,

Doing whatever,

Like there was those ways to try to fix it by not really getting to the root cause.

Yeah,

You state that there are three main components to healing.

I want to ask you about that.

I love framework things.

And it helps people grasp the ideas better.

Yeah,

Yeah.

And it's something that I've used,

I've kind of come up with in the midst of all the work that I've done healing trauma for so many years,

You know,

The EMDR,

The sensory motorcycle therapy,

The IFS.

So there's some of this belief system,

Which is rooted in the therapies that are kind of suited for trauma,

But also neuroscience,

You know,

There's a piece of neurons,

There's a lot of neuroscience knowledge that also goes into these three components.

Memory reconsolidation is a type of science that talks about rewiring the neural networks.

So for me,

I've kind of clarified healing,

Like the healing component has three main parts to them.

First is witnessing or sharing the story.

Like in order for the part that holds the trauma,

In order for it to truly be able to let it go,

It needs to share the story,

Not just the details,

Thoughts,

Feelings,

Physical experience,

The experience of the trauma,

Not just the story.

That way,

It's not the only one who holds it.

I can share it internally with my adult self.

I could share it with a therapist.

I could share it with somebody that I'm close to.

It doesn't only have to be in therapy.

The second,

For me,

Most important component is a corrective experience.

Neuroscience calls it disconfirming.

I like to call it corrective.

Like,

Am I loved when I felt hated?

Am I connected when I felt alone?

You know,

Am I safe when I felt physically hurt?

Like,

There has to be a corrective experience for the part that holds the trauma.

It's like,

Oh,

This is how it is.

And again,

Internally or relationally,

It can happen,

Right?

And once those two components are met in some way,

Then release is possible.

It's like,

Okay,

I'm not the only one holding this.

Okay,

I've gotten what I needed.

Now I can let it go.

And that for me is how that transformation and release occurs.

And I'm always looking for those moments.

And I'm always expanding those moments,

Whether I'm doing therapy with somebody or whether it's outside of therapeutic modality,

You know,

Because I do want,

You know,

There's not enough therapy,

There's not enough resources and access to therapists to heal all that we need to heal in the world.

So I'm really trying to bring this information to people that might not be able to afford the luxury of therapy,

Right.

And so I'm trying to teach it in a safe,

Thoughtful way,

Right.

But those are the components that I see that are necessary.

That's why I look younger,

Is I've gone through that process over and over and not once many,

Many times under many different circumstances that were overwhelming.

Yeah,

I love how you say,

I'm going to focus on this one part,

Internally and externally,

That that's really,

I want you to speak about that a little more.

You're right,

That witnessing when you share with sometimes we don't even witness our own stuff,

We haven't witnessed it,

Right.

It's like a big chaotic jumble of things,

You know,

But the moment you tell a coherent story or where you feel and share the experience in that embodied way,

You also become witness to it.

100%.

It's so powerful,

That part.

Yes,

It is.

Yeah.

And,

You know,

The piece around it is that people don't really understand in trauma,

We disconnect from ourself to survive.

There's a disconnection between the self and the part that holds the trauma.

So trauma inherently has this built-in disconnection.

It's a survival mechanism.

And so part of the healing is repairing that disconnected relationship.

So there is an internal dimension to healing.

Oh,

I get it.

I get what you went through,

Frankie,

When you were a little boy.

And is Frankie interested in receiving love from me now?

Because I'm adult,

I'm resourced,

I'm in a different place,

Right?

It's a two-way relationship internally.

But it also can happen relationally,

With a parent and a child,

With two partners in an intimate relationship,

With a dear friend,

With a therapist,

You know what I mean?

So there is for me,

This relational component internally and externally,

That's important for people to pay attention to.

It's not one way only to do healing.

Yeah,

Because sometimes you hear people say,

Oh,

You need to love yourself in order to love other people,

Or categorically the other way.

If you haven't been loved,

You can never love.

And I'm like,

It's not as clear-cut as that.

It's a both-and,

It's not an even-or,

It's a both-and.

Yeah,

And they can happen simultaneously.

I have experienced that relationally big time.

In fact,

I think my own healing predominantly firstly came from a relational healing and then,

Like you say,

Take a U-turn.

Because the moment I felt safe relationally and stable,

Then I can take that U-turn and do the internal healing work,

Right?

One of the things that was striking to me in my therapy journal,

A therapy journey,

And I wasn't even aware of this at the time,

Was that I needed to process my trauma before I could connect to who I authentically was.

There was this whole conversion therapy,

Act like a man,

Act like a man.

So I was programmed that way,

But I needed to release the trauma in order to truly connect with my authentic self.

I came out very late in life,

32 years old,

After my trauma was primarily healed,

Not exclusively healed.

Do you know what I mean?

So that was the order for me and everybody has a different order,

You know,

And that internal connection and those relational connections are both important.

I couldn't do the internal until I released more of my trauma.

Yeah,

That's really interesting.

Can you speak a little bit about the corrective experiences,

What they might look like,

Like in a practical way?

Well,

In people,

They happen all the time and people don't pay attention to them.

I'm always slowing down those corrective experiences.

And I don't hold a paternalistic view with my clients or with my own healing journey.

Like you should get a hug.

You need to be loved.

Like it doesn't work that way.

You know,

It's more about the part that holds the trauma,

Listening to what they need,

Listening to what they need.

Like sometimes it's like,

I just need to be seen.

And by you witnessing this story,

I feel seen.

So that might be the corrective experience.

Sometimes it's tactile.

It's like,

I need touch.

I need to be held.

Sometimes it's emotional.

I need to feel loved.

I need to feel seen.

So I really leave it up to the part that holds the trauma to share with us what it's missing and what it needs,

Right?

Because it's got to come from that place.

And often it's the opposite.

Like I said,

If you were criticized and hated,

You need to be loved.

You know,

If you were ignored,

You need contact and connection.

You know what I mean?

But I'm always letting the part that holds the experience,

Tell us what it means.

Yeah,

It is.

Thank you for elaborating more.

And this is why IFS is such a powerful,

Non-pathologizing,

Helping-you-heal-yourself modality.

When I had Dr.

Schwartz on my podcast,

He did a real-life session with me.

I was really struggling with something,

And it just healed that thing in that one session.

And I'm like,

This is deceptively simple.

But the way I was able to enter into my own imagination,

Into the corners of my brain and see things and do those things,

I'm like,

Wow,

We all have access to that at all time.

So trauma healing does not have to be,

I don't want to make it sound like it's an easy,

Simple thing,

But it's accessible.

Well,

Here's what I'll say.

We don't all have access at any time.

That trauma blocks love and connection.

Okay?

So people that have severe trauma histories don't have easy access.

Oh,

Say more about this.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The trauma blocks love,

That's trauma blocks our self.

Trauma blocks self-connection,

Right?

So if you have a lot of trauma,

It's like this.

If you have a lot of trauma,

It's like it covers you up and there's no access to love that's inside of you.

So sometimes it's not so easy to access.

It's in there.

I believe it's in there,

But it's not so accessible when there's too much trauma that blocks access to our authentic self.

And that happens a lot for people who have grown up in abusive environments or dysfunctional families.

They really protect them.

They have a lot of protectors that block access to their true selves.

So it can take time to get access to that healing energy that's in all of us.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Wow.

That's great.

Yeah.

So it's in all of us,

But it makes total sense.

I was so oblivious.

Yeah.

You're so right.

And sometimes I see,

Like,

I'm part of this trauma Facebook group and people post your quotes there frequently,

By the way.

Beautiful.

Oh,

That's wonderful.

Yeah.

There's always,

Yeah.

And sometimes I see people seek help and they're like,

I can't deal with,

They're so like dark in heavy,

Horrible places,

Even as adults.

It makes sense now that when you say that,

You know,

They don't see the light or that's even possible.

That's right.

It happens for a lot of people,

You know,

That's part of,

You know,

Hope in healing.

I really want that message to get across.

There is hope.

This can happen.

And,

You know,

I'm an example,

You know,

Like see my story and yes,

This is possible for you too.

Like I really want people to hold that message.

How do you define trauma?

Do you think,

You know,

There is obviously different views.

Some people say everybody has trauma.

Some people say,

No,

It trivializes other people's experiences who had real trauma.

There is big trauma,

Small trauma,

Which I think is also ridiculous.

I do too.

Like trauma is trauma.

Like,

Why are we categorizing them?

I think what I think I call it overwhelming life experience because there's a lot of people in general called general population that is very aversive to the word trauma.

That didn't happen to me,

Not me,

Not me.

I think,

Did you ever have an overwhelming life experience?

You're like,

Oh yeah.

Oh yeah.

My mother died abruptly or we were in a car accident or,

You know,

I was raped in college,

You know,

Like everybody can seem to relate to,

Have you ever had an overwhelming life experience?

So kind of use that word when trauma is kind of a contagion,

Like a scary word for some people.

Right.

I think about fear intensity and duration.

And I think about each person's perception.

So those are the things that I hope,

Like,

Was there fear involved?

How intense was the experience and how long did it last?

Right.

So we look at,

You know,

One single incident,

Like that can be horrible and we can release that.

When you look at 50 episodes or a hundred,

That's a different story.

The more we have,

The more we accumulate and what's the intensity for the person experiencing it.

Because,

You know,

You have two kids in a family,

They both experienced the same thing.

They have different outcomes.

So every person's different around the impact these events have us.

So I'm always looking at each individual's experience and I'm looking at fear intensity,

Duration,

You know,

Trauma is what happens to us.

PTSD are the consequences of the trauma.

So trying to break those down because people mix them up together a lot.

So we've all been through.

I think that's why we're here to some degree is to learn through our difficult moments,

Because I don't know anybody who doesn't have difficult moments.

I mean,

Anybody who is a result of someone's parenting,

You know,

It's like that's already a lot,

Right?

That's already a lot.

People are nervous about the word trauma.

Fine,

Don't use it.

Let's talk.

Let's use your language.

I don't have to use the trauma language,

Right?

Use your language.

I want to help you release the stuff that was thrust upon you,

That doesn't belong to you and gets in the way of your authentic life.

Call it what you want.

I don't care.

Yeah.

I want to ask you to speak about compassion and empathy.

When we offer that to in what kind of this regulated state,

I found that like striking.

It was so revelatory for me to learn that.

Beautiful,

Beautiful.

Yeah.

A lot of people don't think about the way we're with someone when I think about the difference between empathy and compassion.

And,

You know,

Some of this comes from the work of Tanya Singer,

Who's a neuroscientist in Germany when she looks at empathy and compassion.

So I look at some of her brain science stuff and apply it to the way we are with people.

And,

You know,

People think there is a difference between empathy and compassion.

And,

You know,

In this definition,

Compassion is the capacity to be with somebody else,

As well as the desire to help them.

So there's a dopamine,

There's a seat,

You know,

I'm seeking to help you.

So I'm open and available.

I'm holding space for you.

That's compassion.

Empathy is when I'm resonating with your suffering.

Not that I've been through the exact same thing,

But I'm emotionally resonating.

And what we learn when we unpack this even a little more is it's not that I'm feeling yours.

It's actually,

Oh,

I'm feeling my wounding when I'm in connection to you feeling your wounding.

So it's a resonating,

Like I relate to you because I've had that experience.

That's what I'm hoping people will do.

And what you said you did when you read my book.

Oh,

My goodness,

Frank,

I was tearing up.

I was feeling bad for you,

Compassion,

But I all empathy.

And so both are important.

Both are important.

It's not that one's better than the other.

Both help in the healing journey because we want people to get us.

We want people to know what it feels like.

You know,

We want somebody to be there to hold the space for us.

Yeah,

You said something in an interview when a child is,

Let's say,

You know,

As a parent,

When your child is activated versus when they are frozen,

Sort of shut down state,

You know,

You said when they are frozen,

Or a person or a child,

You want to approach through the doorway of empathy.

When they are more activated,

Stressed out in the sympathetic activation,

You want to enter through the doorway of compassion.

Exactly.

That's right.

Yeah.

Because when somebody's overwhelmed and freaking out,

You don't want to join them in that experience.

I'm freaking out.

Me too.

Ah,

You know,

It's like more energy gets more energy,

You know,

There you want to hold space for somebody,

Right?

And when they're shut down,

That's where you want to reach them emotionally.

Like,

I know what that feels like.

I've been there before,

Because they're shut down and they don't have access to their experience.

So we want to join them in their emotional connection.

So those are different ways that neuroscience really does help us learn how to be with people.

Now,

Whether this is in a therapeutic setting,

Or in your family or in your relationships,

It's helpful.

Yeah,

Well,

I want to go back to your memoir for one moment again,

And ask you about forgiveness.

That was huge.

And it felt like by reading it,

That you reached forgiveness.

It was this,

And you were so honest about it,

About your feelings towards your dad.

I really appreciated the honesty.

You know,

You didn't fake it for the reader,

Make it,

You know,

Glorify it.

But there was that moment where you were not ready to forgive him,

Or you were not yet forgiving him,

Or you turn back and go and say,

I think I should say,

I love you,

Dad.

It's the right thing to do.

It's the right thing to do.

But I didn't feel it.

Yeah,

But you didn't feel it.

Yeah.

And then how and when did you feel it?

It seemed like that progression we saw as a reader,

You see that in you,

It was so moving.

It was,

You know,

It was a process.

And,

You know,

Like,

Again,

I know what the right thing to do is,

I teach it for a living,

Like I help my patients.

So it was,

You know,

To have that awareness,

But not have the emotional resonance with that was challenging.

But,

You know,

It was really,

I will say,

Honestly,

And I could even just cheer up,

Like recalling the moment,

You know,

When he,

When I felt his love for the first time was really the turning point for me.

And,

You know,

That was a combination of him and his vulnerability.

And it was my openness and receptiveness.

So it was a combination of both of us,

I don't was not just him,

It was both of us,

Right,

You know,

And that moment was transformative for me.

It was transformative.

And that's what allowed me to then forgive him and love him back.

Yeah,

I mean,

When you when he was so frail,

And you were helping him,

It was so moving that part that you can see his humanness,

Right?

He's this vulnerable human being and he did love you in his own way.

But as your mom said,

Oh,

He was not able to show emotion,

Frank,

And you in your mind said,

Oh,

But he was able to express rage.

He had no problem with anger and rage with love.

And it was,

You know,

I only know this in retrospect is that he didn't have access to that within himself.

You know,

Because of his own limitations and his complicated history.

I was just the unfortunate recipient of that.

But I don't I no longer feel it was about me,

I feel it was about him.

Wow.

And so were you able to have that compassion for him?

Right?

Oh,

Then I was able to see him for who he was for who he is.

You know,

He's not like that anymore.

I could feel him as he transitions,

I feel the difference in his soul and his energy.

But I had compassion for him,

Which was powerful.

I wanted to give him a beautiful funeral.

I wanted to give that was like,

You know,

That was another kind of powerful piece for me around how freeing it felt to love somebody who harmed you.

Like,

There's nothing more powerful for there wasn't I there's that that is a moment that I will never forget in my life.

It was a moment for me to like,

Feel so good about not being dragged down or affected by the pain anymore,

That I rose,

I truly rose above it,

And felt love for someone who harmed me.

Oh,

How does it feel when you say now like that?

Really good,

Feels really empowering.

It's the way I want to live my life.

It's the way I want to live my life.

And it's the way I want to teach people to live their lives.

Because I think we need a lot more of that.

I remember that part about the eulogy when you know,

You were conflicted,

You didn't want to do the eulogy because of that reason.

Exactly.

And I was able to get there and be able to speak authentically.

You know,

I speak for a living,

Like,

You know,

I know how to speak.

It wasn't from the heart,

Until I moved through that process more.

What was it specifically?

Do you think was it?

It was a combination.

It was what my dad said to me at his deathbed.

And it was my mom said to me,

You know,

I got the,

Yeah,

Exactly.

It was those two,

Those two gifts that I got from them.

And again,

My readiness to receive them,

It's a combination that allowed me to be in a different place.

Yeah,

Your openness to receiving it,

I think is another big part of the healing journey.

You have to be open to that.

And what did your father say?

I think it would be good to say it because I read it,

But the listener hasn't yet.

I want to keep that for them to read.

Good,

Good.

That's a suspense.

Yeah,

Because I want them to,

Like that was one people to experience it firsthand to kind of have left that journey on them.

Right in the way that's right for them.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

And one last question,

If you had received those two gifts much earlier in your life?

I don't know.

It's a great question.

Because it is that I don't know how receptive I would have been to it.

Right.

So it's a combination.

I mean,

That's the way my life unfolded,

Because that's the way it was supposed to unfold.

I'm aware of that.

I don't know.

You know,

I do.

I know this as a therapist,

I can say things to people hundreds of times,

And it doesn't land.

And they're like,

Oh,

My God,

Thank you.

I'm like,

Hello,

I've been saying this for 10 years.

But you know,

Like,

It's the combination.

You know,

I was ready at that point in my life in a way that I don't know.

I don't think I would have been able to earlier.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well,

Thank you so much.

I so enjoyed this conversation.

It's so nourishing,

And really heartwarming.

Beautiful.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

I appreciate it.

Yeah.

And good luck with everything.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Yes.

Lovely.

That concludes today's conversation,

My dear listener,

And I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.

Isn't Dr.

Frankie Anderson wonderful?

I learned so much from this episode,

And I found the insights powerfully inspiring.

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