Even Though You Have Broken Your Vows

47:41

47:41

Even Though You Have Broken Your Vows

by Catherine Ingram

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There is a Sufi line that says, "Even though you have broken your vows, perhaps ten thousand times, come again, come again." This excerpt from Dharma Dialogues with Catherine Ingram, recorded in Lennox Head, Australia in June 2018, tackles about how you can come back fresh despite having broken your vows.

Compassion Acceptance Awareness Resilience Mindfulness Attention Self Inquiry Community Relationships Sufism Dharma Self Compassion Awareness And Acceptance Emotional Resilience Relationship Challenges Attention Shift Mind Wandering Spirits

Meet your Teacher

Catherine Ingram

Lennox Head NSW, Australia

Meet your Teacher

Catherine Ingram

Lennox Head NSW, Australia

Transcript

Welcome to In the Deep. I'm your host, Katherine Ingram. The following is excerpted from a session of Dharma Dialogues held in Lenox Head, Australia in June 2018. It's called, Even Though You Have Broken Your Vows. There's a Sufi line I like a lot and it goes, Even though you have broken your vows, Perhaps ten thousand times, Come again, Come again. So broken your vows is a little bit heavily religious sounding, So I'm going to edit it slightly. So even though you have not met your intentions, Perhaps ten thousand times, Right? Many, Many times that you've said, Oh, I knew better or you've intended not to fall into neurotic crazy states. You've promised yourself over and over, Right? You're not going to indulge certain types of mind streams. And there you found yourself in it again. Rather than a lot of self-recrimination and rather than a lot of big story about how did this happen again and why is this happening, All of that just simply come again, Come again. This moment is always fresh. And you can find yourself surprisingly fresh in it, Right? You've come back into the new you over and over and over and over. Of course, There are patterns, Tendencies, Conditionings that are familiar. But I, At this ripe old age, Am kind of interested in the fact that I don't really recognize myself if I think about who I was or how I used to perceive or how I used to be. There's a kind of familiarity, Of course, But it's very, Very different with time and with a certain use of attention whereby one doesn't practice one's contours of self that much. You don't tell a lot of stories. I just don't tell as many stories about who I am anymore. It's a habit that I used to have as a younger person and that has changed a lot over the years. Perhaps 10, 000 times, Perhaps in a day, One might sense that, That your mind is jumping all over the place. You're in a particular phase that's kicking up a lot of old conditioned stuff, Material. And each moment is yet again fresh. And one releases all ideas of having to untie all these knots, Right? Poonjatjie used to use the image of the Gordian knot, That all these people came along and they were trying to figure out how to untie the knot. Impossible. And Alexander comes along and he just takes his sword out and slices through it. I loved that story. You don't have to untie all the knots. You don't have to figure out all the back history. Just start with the freshness. It's lovely to be back here. Yes, I haven't seen you for a while. I've been travelling like you. Different places. But just that, The feeling of 10, 000 times and coming fresh every moment, It's a wonderful image and wonderful place to start. Just like a new opportunity. I was getting at the end of that, An image of a new seed. It's not the time really for growing much, Although there are winter vegetables that are growing. But for me, The winter feels more like just sort of closing down and to going internally and looking at, Listening more carefully to that voice that's often repeating, You know, The mean voice inside of me that makes up the stories about what I'm doing wrong and catching myself in that and just to come fresh every moment. Sometimes it just takes the reminder that that's possible. Absolutely. It's the perfect reminder for me today just to, There isn't anything to do, Just to, What a relief. What a relief just to be able to let go and start again, Start afresh. Yes, Absolutely. In every moment. Often there's a day that I might feel, Oh, Everything's going wrong. Just go to bed early and start again. It'll be different. Or after the full moon or after this or whatever. But what about in the next breath, Start afresh. Yes, Absolutely. I don't know if I've mentioned this, But a few months ago, One of my close friends called me in the middle of the night, Her night, My day, And she was just in a twilight zone. She was just in this crazy mind state and she knew I would be awake unlike most of the other people in the world. And so she called me and I said, God, It must be like two or three in the morning in your time. And she said, Yes, Yes, It is. So she launches into this thing and I just said, I listened to it and I just said, This sounds like crazy middle of the night talk. But in a way we can have crazy in the middle of the night talk in the day, Right? Sometimes we just get into a bubble of madness, You know? And it's good to kind of shake yourself as though you're saying, Because she really laughed and she really knew what I was talking about. And I said, This is going to look so different tomorrow. And I did for her. But that can happen in a day, That can happen as you go. I mean, Sometimes if I'm having a neurotic little mini storm, I'll just sort of put my attention, As I've said so many times, Put your attention anywhere else, Right? Darn some socks, Anything, Right? It doesn't have to be gloriously spiritual or anything like that, Just any old thing. And then I find myself, Yes, I'm just kind of almost chuckling at the state that I just was and the difference. And because I've made that experiment many, Many thousands of times, I have a kind of confidence when I'm in one of those, You know, That I'm going to, As soon as possible, I'm going to snap out of this in some way or other, You know? And another phrase that comes to me to say is, I often speak about that we live in a grand mystery, But that also includes our own very self. The truth is, I mean, If we really consider it in a great reflection, You're a mystery to yourself. Yeah, Absolutely. Yeah, Absolutely. And that's a part of this vast mystery. Absolutely, Yes. Yeah. I mean, I think that the original who am I question, It doesn't have an answer. It leads you into the mystery. And so, I see the power of that question in exactly that, That if you really ask it in a heartfelt way, You're not going to get an answer. You're going to land in the big, Vast mystery about life, About existence itself, About all of this show that we don't really know much about. And that's actually very freeing and that's very enlivening. And it definitely takes the pressure off of all the little dramatic stories that we're all caught up in. Little bubbles in the stream. I'm thinking I've just spent a few days contemplating a really difficult relationship in my life, A family member, That really it goes back as long as I can remember. So, There's a lot of, Once that issue gets to the point where I'm not really sure what's going on, I'm not really sure what's going on, But I'm not really sure what's going on. Once that issue comes up, It's very dense. And it's hard to start afresh in the middle of that density. It's hard to sort of step outside of it. Are there issues that are triggering it in current stories? Yeah. So, Then it's sort of like it just kind of rises up and surfaces, And then it stays surface for a while and then it kind of recedes. But when it's surfaced, It's like got the history of all the times it's surfaced. And there doesn't seem to be, There's no answer to this particular connection. It's like some karmic knot that's never going to go away. That's how it feels. So, Then when it's in, Yeah, It's hard to be fresh, I guess. It's got so much history. Yeah, And let's say, Okay, It's hard to be fresh when it's arising. And my point is, Just as soon as possible, Allow the freshness to resurface for you without having to think that that knot has to be untied. Right. Free yourself of that one as well. There's some, And what you're pointing to too, When you have history with someone, Where there have been many, Many different moments of a certain kind of thing going a certain kind of way consistently, That will definitely come, That will evoke a lot of conditioning and a certain degree of reactivity when you're experiencing it again. It's just human. It's just normal. So, To really allow that, Do your best to not have a reaction that's going to further dig the hole deeper. Maybe try to contain the reaction with like an inner implosion. And know that as soon as possible, You're going to move the attention into the what's so of it, The ah so of it, The surrender, All of those things without having to find some grand solution. If it just doesn't seem that possible. And sometimes, Mysteriously, It's been the case for me, Where I've felt that I've been at an impasse in a certain type of relationship, Friendships usually, That somehow they kind of revive themselves in some way that might be serviceable, Let's say, But not necessarily super intimate anymore. But just at least something softens around the whole thing. And others that, That the, It's like the damage is done and you can't really do much about it. It's like you realize this is dangerous ground and I'm not going to hang out on this dangerous ground anymore. I mean, There's such a panoply of possibilities with regard to human relationships and how we play them and how we negotiate them. And all the while, You know, While honoring our own conditioned responses, In certain circumstances with people, And that is like you don't necessarily just think you're going to always be fresh. In relationships that there's been a lot of hurt in the background, You know. It's a little bit silly then to go into it and think you're going to be fresh, You know, It's a little dangerous really. But I think that's a really important thing to do. Where you can be fresh though is in the aftermath, In the stepping aside once you're able to do that. In a sense, Not carrying them in your head. That's where the freshness can be. I liked what you said, Something you said earlier, Sort of just was resonating around some of the starkness is around wanting it to be gone to be fresh, Wanting the solution to be fresh. So in some way being fresh in the middle of the pain, Yeah, Of this or the starkness somehow. I'm not sure I totally know how to do that. Or just, Yeah, Even if, Like I'm just going to go from my own experience, Which is the only place I can really speak from. Let's say I'm experiencing something that's very hurtful, Agitating, Bewildering, It's kicking up resentment, Etc. Let's say somebody has done something or behaved in such a way that I consider deeply inconsiderate, Unkind, You know, Some even minor betrayal. Wrong. Yeah, Yeah. Someone said something that's wrong. Yes, Right, Wrong. And so in the midst of all of those feelings, It may not feel like it's your freshest moment. It's like I said to my girlfriend, It's the middle of the night talk, Right? It's an equivalent of that. Like in the middle of it, It's almost like you're in a bad drug, You know? And you're just experiencing this kind of dark state of mind. Where I go with that is that I know that this is going to pass one way or another. Either I'm going to move my attention around in such a way or just with some time or I'm going to go, You know, Take a bath or take a walk or sit and have a cup of tea and look outside. Somehow or other, The attention is going to move around and it's going to reset itself to its more quiet place because that's where it likes to be and that's where it actually feels the most normal now. So that's what I rely on is the freshness. It's almost like a return to the freshness and not expect to have that necessarily in every moment. These are the kinds of distinctions I emphasize. I don't ask for a steady state of myself. I know that that is not likely and I don't have any expectation that it will be. I do notice that it's gotten more steady over the years but it's not entirely steady, You know, At all. There's definitely some roller coaster rides and old conditioning and disappointments and fears and some of the stuff we've talked about, About future thoughts and so on. That's all in the mix of my screen of awareness but my attention defaults quickly. It does the returning. It does the coming again and that's where the confidence is for me. I don't care about the horizons. I know that, You know, My monkey mind is going to go all over the place sometimes but I don't mind that. I know, I expect that. So the confidence really is about the ability to return the attention, The coming again. Even if it's not directly in that moment. Well, Certainly it usually isn't directly in that moment and then it's just a matter of how long are you willing to suffer your crazy mind. I'm not very willing to suffer my crazy mind for too long. I used to have a lot more stamina for it. I used to have a lot more stamina for it. I'm realizing there's this chatter that I often have about some spiritual chatter. Like, When I'm quiet, You know, When my mind's quiet and still then, You know, I'm related to God or, You know, I'm there and then when I'm not I'm away from it, You know. Yeah, That's the kind of stuff that starts to dissolve in my view with the great clear experience of what is actually going on and with the release of any ideas about it being other than the direct experience that you're having, Which is that the attention seems to be setting itself more to peaceful channels and that's all there is to it. Right? You just keep floating along on that. Program, You know, Of how you're using your attention. So, Yeah, I've said many times, You know, My spiritual ideas have gone, You know, The seeking is completely gone. All of that is gone. So, You know, So simple now, So ordinary and Thank you. Yeah. I really love that quote, Come, Come, Yet again, Come. You know, Ours is not a caravan of despair. It's one of my favorite ones because I really. . . Is it Rumi? Who is it? Rumi. Is it Rumi? Yeah, Yeah, Rumi. And so many times, No matter how far away I get from myself, The invitation's just open to come back. Yeah. I don't have to make up with myself or myself. It's like just you're welcome back, Doesn't matter. Yeah, That's beautiful. Like the prodigal son. You just welcome open arms, You know, That's. . . And I've had that experience many times when I've really felt like I've betrayed myself or I've gone so far away from what's true. And also there's a sense for me in that of community, Like somehow I'm not just coming back to me, I'm coming back to my connection or my community or where I belong, You know. I'm welcomed by everybody. Yes, Yes. It's been a really strong theme my whole life. Beautiful. And I guess where what happens to me is I know that movement of coming back and I have this feeling that in life, Here's real life and it's stress and the things I have to manage in the world. And it's kind of I have to leave that caravan, You know, Of where I belong and that in order to manage in the world. But I can come back, You know. And there's this sort of sense even like I can't be who I really am and manage in the world how my life, You know, Manage with the stress in the world, You know. And you were saying just before that you don't have that that seeking anymore. Like it's kind of like I know where to go but I know that I'm going to keep leaving it because I've got to get on it in the world, Etc, Etc. And if I'm in the place of that openness and that belonging and that connectedness, I kind of feel like it can't fit into this conditioned world. Like they're two different worlds. Well, I'm hearing you and I understand why that would be a sense. I was just reflecting as you were speaking. In my own case, It's almost like certain circumstances are much more the colors are much richer of being in that kind of brightness of being. And then sometimes when it's in a more workaday mode or travel mode or just some other kind of or even less space, You know, And less space, Too busy, All that busyness and so on. The colors are much more dimmed but I don't have a sense of in and out so much. For me, It's like, You know, Sometimes there's neurosis going, Sometimes fear is arising, Sometimes there's busyness, Right? All of that, It just all feels part of the same seamless experience of being, Right? It's all just rolling on. And then other times I'm feeling a much more much more, You know, Strong drenched sense of calm and quiet. But I'm not necessarily looking for like, Again, No steady state and no sense of in certain circumstances it's there and otherwise it's not there. It's just that it's more obvious. It's more obvious in some and a little more opaque in others. So, For instance, When I'm tired, When I'm very exhausted, Sometimes I don't sleep well sometimes. So, The next day I'm a bit draggy and I'm noticing that my awareness is dimmed. It's operating at about half its normal clarity. And so there's just the experience of that. It's like exhaustion is being experienced through the beingness. But once again, A sense of confidence that, You know, At some point if I get enough rest, The full complement of energy will be back. If I don't, Then it won't like that, You know. CB I guess I can see how the idea of returning has created a subtle separation from one state of being and another state of being. And then I return back to this state of being. And I know I'm going to actually lose it from there. And I'm doing this. JF Yeah, Right. Yeah. So maybe it's not quite the right language, Is it? I mean, It's so hard to. . . CB What's interesting is I've carried this phrase for most of my life. It's been one of my favorite things, You know. So I think I've carried a separation in the way I see my experience. JF Right. CB From I'm either connected to that part of myself in the universe or I've lost it and I've got to seek my way back. JF Right. Yes. And even the idea of broken your vows. CB That's it. And I do. I make these, Although I have these truths and then I go against them. JF Yeah, Right. CB So that's my idea of breaking vows. JF Yeah. CB But, You know, It's interesting the way that, Because it's been so meaningful for me, How that's probably shaped how I understand what's going on in my life. JF Right. So, I mean, You could still use it as a kind of little intention reminder, But have a new translation of it. You know? Yeah. I also was interested in what you said about, I forgot your phrase of it. Betraying yourself or did you say that? Yeah. CB Or my truth. JF Your truth. Yeah. CB Like having an insight, Having an understanding, Seeing something and then actually finding myself betraying it because I move into other aspects of my being or responding to what's happening in life. And, You know, When you know you're not operating from what you really are. JF From your highest wisdom. CB Yeah. JF Yeah. Right. Yeah. All part of just being a human, You know? We're just, Right. It's all very touching, Isn't it? Poignant and how we strive so hard to be a bit better, You know, And to be a bit easier to live with, You know, With ourselves, You know? And it's so ironic that the direction for that all to happen is in the relaxation and not in the striving. You know, It's just constantly ironic in that regard. CB It creeps in the struggle, You know? JF Yeah. CB Creeps into everything, You know? JF Yeah. CB Subtly to be somewhere other than you're not, To be in a different state, To get somewhere else. JF Right. And because so much in life does require effort and striving and doing, You know, Almost all other activities that people are engaged in. But this one, Which I consider the quintessential one, It's the opposite, You know? It's all about deep acceptance. It's about, You know, Radical acceptance and surrender and quieting and, You know, Not needing to prove anything. CB Just as you were saying that I was thinking about the image that I've been holding, You know, Of returning, You know, From that quote, Come, Come, Yet again, Come. And I was just thinking it's really, It's not about going somewhere. It's just that letting go, You know? JF Yes. CB Like if I'm in a tighter, Smaller place that maybe doesn't represent my truth and whatever, Just to let go. That's the return. JF Yeah. That's it. CB Yeah. It's not a to-ing and fro-ing. It's, Yeah. JF It's more of an opening. CB Yeah. JF It's just there's a couple of different sections of my life, You know, I've gone down a couple of different spiritual pathways. One has emphasized a lot of practice. And this one, Which is like other ones that I've been on, Which is more like just let go. Yeah. CB Yeah. JF And I don't know. It's just sort of a stupid, It's a stupid question. I, I, It's like, When I'm in this with you, It's like, Oh yes, The letting go. Like, Oh, That's all really just hands off. Let go, Let go, Let go. But what's with the other side? You know, Why, Why are there so many other paths that emphasize such intense practice? Like, I don't understand why there can be such a different approach. CB Such a different approach, Yeah. Well, I mean, In truth, Like for instance, In Tibetan Buddhism, They do many years of preliminary practices that are so arduous. 100, 000 prostrations is one, Is one of the first ones. 100, 000 full prostrations takes years of time. 100, 000 of these building and dumping, I forgot what the technical name is, But where you're like, Dump, You're, You're building up these bowls full of rice drippings and I don't know what else. And then dumping that and another time and then dumping that. 100, 000 of those. And I don't know all the different 100, 000s, But anyway, Eventually, Eventually, After many years of practice, They give you what are called the Dzogchen teachings, Which are exactly this. Exactly. It's no practice. But they don't tell you that, At least they didn't in the old days. They didn't in the old days tell you that. It's actually the secret's out and a lot of people are teaching Dzogchen to complete novices, Which is, Was not formally done and would probably be considered a bit of a no-no. So, Yes, There are all these practices. At the end of all the practice, This is what you land in. So then it's a question of, Are some people ready to just go to the, Go to the end game, Right? To go to the last point. Right? To go to the last point and live at that point. And are there other people who would need a bit of mind training and focus and concentration and probably the answer to that is yes. Probably the answer is yes. Some people maybe would be benefited by different types of mind training, Mindfulness practice, Probably being the simplest and most direct. And I've known a lot of people who don't need to do that. So for me, Because of the the salubrious and happy discovery of this way of being, I just feel called upon to share only this. And for those who can hear that and are ready for it, You know, Wonderful. We celebrate. And there are some who aren't ready for it. And that may be a greater number, I don't know. But I think that's a great question. And that may be a greater number, I don't know. I mean, What I'm saying is not different than what Eckhart Tolle is saying. It's pretty identical. And a lot of people can hear his message. It gets out there far and wide. Poonjaji once said, At the end of 30 years of practice, You'll only have that moment. You know, You'll only just land in the beingness of this very moment. So he said, Why not have now, Now? Why not have that experience? And not think you have to go through 30 years of practice to have it. It's not going to be some other magical thing. It's just this. It's just, It's just all about your ease of being wherever you are, As soon as possible. And but it's a question I've looked at a lot. It's a beautiful answer. It's like a bank loan without the debt. Yeah, Yes, That's right, Exactly. No interest. Thank you. Yeah, One time at the end of one of my retreats long ago in California, A woman who had done a lot of mindfulness practice, She was a very good person. A woman who had done a lot of mindfulness practice at retreats. I mean, Many, Many retreats. She'd done years and years. I had even seen her at all mindfulness practice retreats back in the day. And at the end of it, She very innocently said to me, Because she reported that she'd had the most profound retreat she'd ever had. It was qualitatively different on all scales. You know, Happier, More insightful, More relaxed, So easy, Slept perfectly. Just the whole thing just was knocked out. And she said, Why do they not teach like this? And I said, You'd have to ask them. Right? I don't know. I mean, I'm not called to do it that way. Having done seventeen years of practice and felt a lot of straining in that, The truth was I never liked walking into the meditation hall. And our teachers would give the same exact talks for every course. You could have just put on a tape recorder. They literally gave the same talk. And there were almost no questions. There would just be one or two practice oriented questions, Like literally things like, You know, Can I change my legs in between sitting? And the teachers were like, Just, Oh my God, You know. And nothing about life or anything like that. And I have an auditory memory. It's not as good as it used to be, But it used to be pretty high fidelity. And within a very short time, I'd say probably one or two courses, I had memorized everything they were going to say. And even where their jokes went and the inflections, I could just do it. And so imagine you're sitting there, You're sitting ten hours a day, You're in total silence, You're getting up very early in the morning. Your last meal of the day is at noon. And at five o'clock, You get tea and a piece of fruit. And often we were in a freezing cold monastery in Massachusetts. So you're cold and the night is long. And every other day, Especially if it's a long retreat, Every other day you go into the hall to hear a talk. In addition to the ten hours you're sitting, You get to hear a talk. And it's a talk you've heard so many times that you've memorized it. And so it was really grim, Frankly. And I was in it because it had initially, Because my own conditioning was so hard and I was so crazy. And young and crazy. And it was the only thing that had actually been able to kind of wrestle my mind into some kind of behavior that I could live with. Like really give it mindfulness practice and so that it just couldn't move out of its little root. And also because I was in a circle of friends who I really liked. They were smart and hip and all of them very well educated, Which I wasn't. And suddenly I found myself in this exciting, Internationally cool group of people. So it was this great sense of belonging and a sense that we were doing something. We were starting that whole mindfulness movement. And so it was all very, You know, It was my life, My world, My home, That was a moving feast. And for 17 years, That was how it went. We met a lot of wonderful people and just amazing characters and it was great. But if I really tell the truth, The practice really got stale for me within a few years. And then I slogged on, You know, Year after year after year. And so when I began hearing from friends who'd been with Poonjaji and who I had known through Buddhist circles and who I could see were transformed, Like they were just they were blasted open in a way that I didn't recognize, You know. And something started, You know, Something started lighting in my being like this is a possibility because these are not people who are easily fooled. You know, I'd never been attracted to Hindu gurus or anything like that. I was a hardcore Buddhist. And, You know, We'd go to India to be with Buddhist teachers. I kind of ignored the whole Hindu scene. And so to think of I mean, He really wasn't a Hindu teacher per se. He was really much more in a universal vision and much more than the so-called non-dual teachings. But being there that first time and really grokking the message and really getting there's nothing to do. There's no effort to be made. There's no attainment to be had. And all of these little, You know, Minuscule noting of little mind objects is going to do nothing but just concentrate the mind and calm it down in those moments. But that there was a bigger opening that was possible, A bigger spaciousness around the entire idea of it. That then allows you to just really just be as you are. And so sometimes there's neurosis coming through. His point over and over and over again was that it didn't matter what was going through. You know, He'd say, Open the door, Tear down the walls because it's just all flowing through anyway. And so, You know, It didn't matter. So you're just really living with yourself just as is. But with just this little light, Like I just like to call it a very light intention. You know, Just very light only as needed, Only if you need to apply it. I'm very aware, Of course, That mindfulness has been discovered and is this international phenomenon now. And of course, I also hear and read in the news, A lot of people are being benefited, You know, Just as I was initially. And I think, You know, For people whose minds are just all over the place and they just don't have any kind of control of them. It's good. I've seen, I even saw on the BBC, This program of people who are working with like severely mentally ill people and using mindfulness practice. It was just it was like this documentary on the BBC, Which was amazing. You know, And so I know that it's being used everywhere in terms of, You know, But I think that there's more of a graduate level. And it's like once that's understood and once you've got a little handle on how to move your attention around, Then it can go into a much bigger space. And then you're not dependent on having to note little objects, You know. It's nice to have it in the toolbox. I mean, I use it when I'm at the dentist. It's so interesting what you're saying. And what I notice is the barrier in me is that I don't trust this surrender. And it's interesting because this whole Dzogchen and Realized Eschatology where you can just have it now. I've been really aware of that. But I actually don't. As soon as you're saying it, I could feel I don't trust that. I feel like it's an experience you can have and then there's life. Yeah, It has to be born of your own direct experience. But sometimes when you're hearing other people saying it and you sense that maybe they're telling the truth, You know, It at least gives you more confidence to try to, You know, Turn to be open for that, You know, And in your own case. I mean, That's what happened for me when I was sitting in front of Poonjaji. I could see that he was sitting in what he was saying, At least that's what it looked like to me and felt like. And because of that, Because of that supreme confidence he was exuding, It somehow was a transmission of sorts, Not anything magical. Just that something in my own confidence woke up and I began experiencing it. Not a lot initially, But, You know, Enough that it was pretty mind blowing, You know. I actually remember the very moment I understood that all of that, That the whole idea that I'd been indoctrinated with about a progressive path and that I was headed toward a goal, I mean, It sounds silly to say it at this point, But that was a structure of belief in my mind. And I actually remember sitting in his presence the very moment that that belief became absurd to me. And so I really saw, Wow, You know, I have invested a lot of my life force in that belief. Yeah. That got freed up. I never returned, Never for a second did it ever return. So it is, It's not, It's an experience and an experiment that you make with yourself. This has been In The Deep. You can find the entire list of In The Deep podcasts at katherineingram. Com, Where you can also book a private session by phone or Skype and see my upcoming events such as our New Year's retreat at the ocean near Lenox Head, Australia, Or our residential retreat in New Zealand in May of 2019. If you're a regular listener, Please consider making either a one time or recurring tax deductible donation in any amount that's comfortable for you. Or you could give us a review wherever you're getting your podcasts. Till next time.