The Way Out Is In With Zen Monk Brother Pháp Hữu

How is your happiness related to your suffering?

And how can you find a way out by going in?

That's what we're going to explore today with Brother Fappu on Your Life in Process.

Welcome to Your Life in Process.

With this podcast,

I hope to stand at the intersection of psychological science,

Contemplative practice,

Embodied wisdom,

And neuroscience to offer you some different paths that sort of line up in the same spot.

These processes that together support you in developing your well-being and also taking meaningful action in the world.

So today's podcast is with Zen monk,

Brother Fappu.

And I don't think I've been as excited about a guest as I have been about having Brother Fappu on.

He is a senior teacher at Thich Nhat Hanh's International Community and the Abbot of the Monks Community in Plum Village,

Which is the practice center founded by Thich Nhat Hanh in Southwest France.

Born in Vietnam,

He integrated to Canada as a child.

And he will talk a bit about that experience of immigration and his experience of becoming a monk.

Thich Nhat Hanh gave him his name,

Which means true Dharma friend.

And for over a decade,

He accompanied Thich Nhat Hanh on his international teaching tours as his attendant and assistant.

Today Brother Fappu is deeply committed to building community and continuing Thich Nhat Hanh's legacy,

Bringing his teachings in particular to business people,

Families,

And young adults.

He is also a co-host of one of my very favorite podcasts,

Which is called The Way Out is In.

So there's a number of ways in which you could listen to today's episode.

When you go to a retreat like the ones held at Plum Village,

They will have Dharma talks every day that are led by the monastics there.

And when you go to a Dharma talk,

You'll see people listening to the Dharma talk in different ways.

Some people will listen as a seated meditation,

And I would encourage you to try that.

You could just close your eyes,

Sit down,

Lie down somewhere and receive the teachings of Brother Fappu.

Other people may choose to do what I do,

Which is take vigorous notes and try and connect the dots so that later they can apply what they learned to their life.

And if you are interested in looking at the threads of similarity between what we've been talking about on this podcast and what Brother Fappu is talking about today,

I would encourage you to pay attention to a few things.

First,

Pay attention to the processes of psychological flexibility that are woven throughout his teachings.

Listen for the concept of acceptance.

Listen for the concept of values.

Listen for the concept of cognitive diffusion,

How Brother Fappu is able to step back from his thoughts.

You can also listen for the concept of perspective taking and interconnection,

As well as behavior – in many ways,

Thich Nhat Hanh was a behaviorist,

And behavior is very important in the Buddhist lineage.

You can also look at this through the angle of psychological richness,

Which I talked to Aaron Westgate about recently,

In terms of the richness and meaning that Brother Fappu experienced,

Even in the face of great challenges and difficulty,

And the lineage of that richness and meaning that traces back to his father.

Finally,

You could listen deeply for polyvagal theory,

Which was our most recent episode,

And some of the practices intersect so perfectly with what we are learning about our nervous system – the practice of slowing down,

The practice of smiling to your emotions,

And the practice of breath.

So,

As you're listening to this interview,

You can either take it in and just absorb it,

Or you can put your mind to work in finding these overlaps between psychological science and contemplative wisdom,

Which I think is just always fascinating to learn.

Brother Fappu was very kind to record a meditation for us,

And I will be releasing that as a separate episode,

And I will also extract three of his practices that touched me very deeply.

At the end of this episode,

I will share those with you,

And don't forget,

You can always download them through your daily practice,

Which is linked in these show notes.

And one last thing I want to say,

You may notice that I didn't say much during this interview.

I only asked four questions in the hour time,

And that was very purposeful.

Brother Fappu is a skilled Zen teacher,

And I was really there to primarily receive from him.

I am really excited to share with you that we are going to be having another summit this October 21st and 22nd that's free for you to join,

And that you can watch on demand on your time.

The summit is from Striving to Thriving 2.

0,

And I'll be having conversations with Trudy Goodman and Jack Kornfield about the transformative power of loving awareness.

Kimberly Wilson will be talking about why nutrition and lifestyle matter for your brain health.

Rick Hansen is going to talk about the wellspring of nature.

And Jennifer Payne is going to be sharing how to restore and revive using ACT to address racial trauma and promote social justice.

I can't wait to have another conversation with Anna Lemke about the neuroscience of striving how to get your dopamine system back in balance.

And Dan Siegel will talk with me about Intra Connected,

His new book that's coming out that is integrating identity and broadening belonging.

Alyssa Eppel and Alexander Croswell will be discussing how to use deep rest for cellular regeneration.

I'm really excited about this lineup.

They were all hand chosen by me because they are folks that inspire me,

Have changed my practice and my life.

And it's a real delight that they said yes to coming on this summit.

You can sign up for the summit at from striving to thriving.

Com.

And I really look forward to this fall when we can put all of these principles into practice.

So here we are with brother Fahou,

And you're joining us from not from Plum Village,

France,

Which is where I asked you to come on this podcast,

But from somewhere else.

From Toronto.

From Toronto.

Why are you in Toronto?

This is where I grew up.

This is my childhood place.

My family immigrated to Canada in 1990,

And Toronto has been my base,

My family's base,

Until I moved to Plum Village.

Wonderful.

Well,

I hope that today we can talk a bit about why you moved to Plum Village and you as an individual,

But also what I asked you to come on this podcast for is really to help us,

Especially those of us that are struggling with stress and uncertainty and worry and overwhelm.

And a lot of the practices that I've learned from Plum Village and from the teachings of Thich Nhat Hanh have really helped me with that.

So I'm really excited to have you here to spread some of these messages.

It's such an honor to be with you.

Maybe we can begin with that,

How you made it from Canada to become a monk in France.

I would have to give my gratitude to my father.

He was a boat person,

A refugee from Vietnam.

After the war ended,

My father realized the conditions in Vietnam was changing politically as well as the situation of the country.

There was a lot of suffering,

A lot of poverty,

And the opportunities didn't look so bright.

And at that particular time,

There were a lot of folks gambling with their life in a way to have a brighter future.

And this is when he had a family.

So I wasn't born yet,

But my sister was already born.

So his life wasn't his life anymore.

And he was thinking about the family.

So he made the decision with a lot of courage to leave Vietnam as a boat person and just go into the ocean and wish for the best.

And the first time he was caught,

So he was in prison for two years.

And in the prison,

He met many folks.

At that time,

There was criminals,

But there were also very spiritual people also in prison.

Those who didn't believe in the regime that was changing were also in prison.

So he had a broader opening of life,

Of the views.

And he also met a lot of suffering.

And he shared with me that was when he,

We call it the beginner's mind,

The seed that wants to understand that there is more to suffering.

There is a path that can offer happiness.

That's when it awoken in him.

And he finally made it to Canada in 1989.

And after one year,

He was able to sponsor my family over.

And at this time,

I haven't met my father yet.

So I was conceived and then I was born in Vietnam.

So it was the first encounter.

So it was a really big moment for the whole family.

And after him arriving in Canada,

He was able to finally relax the fight and the fear and survival mode was able to be put to stop.

And so he realized he needed to look for some healing.

And he remembered one of his teachers in Vietnam.

In Vietnam,

Many villages have temples.

So it's very normal to have a monastic that is a refuge for many people.

So that teacher told my father,

If he ever makes it to the West,

Look out for the name Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh.

And all the conditions came together in 1991.

Thai and Sister Chung Khong.

Thai is Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh.

And for us,

His student,

We call him as Thai,

Which means teacher.

So throughout this podcast,

Whenever I call my teacher Thai,

It means I'm referring to Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh.

So Thai and Sister Chung Khong were in Toronto and Thai led a day of mindfulness and gave a public talk.

And through that Dharma talk,

My father realized he needed to take care of himself.

So he saved up enough money,

Flew all the way to Plum Village,

France,

And he stayed there for a good five to six months.

And that was his journey of healing and his journey of spirituality,

Which later on became our journey.

1996,

I was nine years old.

My sister was 11 years old.

My mother went back to Vietnam because she wanted to visit her family.

And we have never been to France.

So my dad really hyped it up,

Said,

We're going to go to Paris.

We're going to see the beauty of France,

Which we did,

Which was only two days.

And then we went on a train,

Traveled all the way to the south of France.

And I started to see the countryside of France,

Which was very beautiful,

Very different than Toronto,

The sunflowers,

The hills.

And this was the beginning of the journey.

And I remember arriving at Saint-Foy-la-Grand train station,

Being greeted by a monk.

That encounter blew my mind because the monk was very young.

The monk was very graceful in his actions.

And I remembered the bow that he offered to my family.

And that bow was so genuine.

It wasn't mechanic.

It wasn't like,

I just have to do this,

But it was a bow of presence.

And I was only nine years old.

And I just felt like I'm offered this respect.

And so naturally,

We just joined a poem and bowed back.

And that year for the summer retreat,

As you know,

And as you shared in the podcast,

It is very international.

We get to meet so many folks from different walks of life.

And I was introduced to a new Buddhism,

A Buddhism that didn't feel Buddhist,

According to my own experience from traditional temple.

And I had the privilege of being in the presence of Thay when he was still teaching and still very healthy.

And I didn't understand his teachings profoundly,

Deeply,

But his way of being really left an impression.

And I just remembered,

Because I didn't have the notion,

This is a famous monk.

I just said,

Whoa,

This is peace.

And I left Plum Village with the impression that that is one of the safest place on earth.

And we all,

As a human being,

We have a spiritual dimension in us.

And it doesn't have to be religious.

We don't have to belong to a religion.

And for us,

A spiritual side or a spiritual refuge,

That's how we call it,

It's not outside of us,

It's inside of us.

Just because we want to be able to touch our inner peace,

Our inner well-being,

Our inner silence,

Our inner happiness.

And that means we have to have space and time to just learn to come back to oneself.

And as I kept coming back to Plum Village with my family,

Every few summers,

I started to recognize that spiritual seed in me was becoming so big that it was knocking on the door of monastichood.

And I was very young.

I was only 13 years old when this thought manifested.

It freaked my mom out.

Because the concept of me living all the way in France and not being in Canada and being away from the family was a very scary thought for any mother.

And I totally understand.

But my mother understood how profound the impact of Plum Village has done to me.

And so my journey really began in 2001 when I was 13 years old.

And the monks and nuns were so excited,

Even Thay was so excited,

To have teenagers coming in with the aspiration to devote their whole life to a monastic life,

Which is a life of practice,

A life of transformation,

And a life of service,

Which is the model of engaged Buddhism that our teacher has coined and has created.

And now I call it a lineage,

A tradition.

Thank you for that beautiful story.

And as you were telling it,

A lot of things came.

Images and thoughts came to mind for me.

One is thinking of you as a nine-year-old boy and how touched he was and what you described of when you're around somebody that's in that space of peacefulness and kindness,

How contagious it is.

I have a nine-year-old son,

And he felt that way at Plum Village.

And today I'm actually going to be asking you some questions from him.

I asked him to share his questions for Brother Phap Hu with me,

And I'll ask one at the beginning and then one at the end.

But the other thing that came to mind for me before I ask his question is that many of us may be thinking,

Okay,

I just need to go to Plum Village and then I'll be happy.

This is what I think now.

If I just go to Plum Village,

Then I can be happy,

But I don't live in Plum Village.

I live in Santa Barbara,

California,

And there's stressors and beautiful things about living here.

So I also want to talk today about how our happiness is here and now or the things that we can do in the here and now,

Wherever we are,

Even if we aren't in Plum Village,

To cultivate some of the peace and the strength and the solidity that you are talking about.

That's also a question I always ask myself.

We say we have koans.

They're questions that are our journey.

We always reflect on it.

What does happiness mean?

We think happiness is something that arrives when we achieve something.

That is the day-to-day thought on happiness.

It's like I am doing something in order to achieve something and then happiness will arrive.

So this is a perception.

This is still in the realm of our views.

And what I have learned in my practice is that happiness is not at that destination only,

But happiness can be a part of every journey and can be a part of the journey in every step,

Every action.

And this can allow you to live deeper the present moment because our practice of mindfulness in our tradition is to learn to be more at home in oneself so that we can be in the present moment where life is.

The present moment is the address of life.

The present moment carries the past.

It carries the future.

It carries all of our suffering and it also carries all of the conditions that can offer us happiness.

Means happiness can be here and now.

When I wake up every morning,

I wake up and I can smile to life and I say,

I have 24 brand new hours.

How will I live this 24 brand new hours?

That is mindfulness.

This is enlightenment of life.

This is happiness of life.

And then our practice is even to smile to the 24 brand new hours,

Even if I know that 24 hours may be challenging.

But my first intention is that I want to smile to that 24 brand new hours because it is offering me an opportunity,

An opportunity to invest and to cultivate my mindfulness,

My awareness,

To cultivate my love,

To cultivate my relationships,

To cultivate my way of being.

And at the same time,

I can smile to my suffering.

You may think that monks and nuns,

We don't have suffering.

And once we enter into the monastic world,

We're always smiling.

We're always peaceful.

That is not reality.

That is not the truth.

We have a lot of suffering that we are taking care of,

That we are looking deeply into.

But what we have is we also know the practice of patience and we also know the practice of developing and cultivating our happiness in order to have enough wellbeing to look at our suffering.

So when we talk about happiness and whenever I talk about happiness,

I always also reflect on suffering.

For us in Buddhism,

Suffering and happiness are two pairs that go hand in hand.

And this is one of the first noble truth of Buddhism,

That suffering is always going to be present in life.

But at the same time,

Happiness is also there.

And suffering can be a teacher for us to understand about our own struggles,

About our own journey in order to arrive and to touch happiness.

So I see that suffering is not an enemy,

But suffering can become a condition that can help me deepen my views,

Deepen my understanding so I can have breakthroughs and have transformation,

Which will naturally offer happiness to me.

So happiness is also,

Looking at it this way,

Happiness is also the first noble truth,

Which is if I'm alive,

I know happy conditions are also there.

So let me play the first question for my son,

And it's related to that because we all slept very deeply.

I've never slept so deeply than at Plum Village.

And when my children came back,

They both had some sleep problems and they continue to have sleep problems.

And this is actually something that many of us struggle with,

Is sleep,

Because our sleep often can reflect what's happening in our life.

So this was his first question for,

Actually this was his third question.

I'm saving the first question for last because it was a big one.

But here is his question for you.

Okay,

Sweetie,

Do you have any questions for Brother Phapu?

Yes.

Sometimes I feel lonely in the night,

And I feel like,

Sometimes I feel like I can't fall asleep.

And I try not thinking that because I know it will keep me awake,

But I just think about that and I feel really lonely.

That's a nine year old question.

Wow,

What a beautiful question.

And I'm sure this will,

This question relates to many of us who also have trouble sleeping.

And loneliness,

He touched on a suffering of today,

Of our modern suffering.

So loneliness,

When your son asks about loneliness,

That is also a feeling.

And so we always have to ask,

What am I lonely of?

Why am I feeling lonely?

Where is this loneliness coming from?

Because it is not just suddenly that loneliness manifests.

There has to be ingredients for that feeling to be there.

So next time that feeling of loneliness come up,

What I would do and what I would encourage is to recognize,

Ah,

My loneliness.

Hello,

My loneliness.

I am here for you.

And I will be that companion to take care and embrace that seed of loneliness.

And loneliness is not something to be ashamed of.

It is just one of our many mental formations that we have as a human being.

And when a feeling that comes up that is uncomfortable,

Sometimes we like to suppress it.

We like to forget about it.

But our practice of mindfulness is also to be mindful of what is happening inside of us.

So when that sensation,

That feeling is there,

Instead of trying to cover it up,

Maybe we might like to listen to music,

Or we may find something to do,

Watch a film,

Or play some video games,

Or eat some food.

They're all instant fix,

Right?

They're quick fix to the sensation,

To the feeling,

But they are not the transformation.

They are not the practice that will lead to the healing.

And so when we can smile to the loneliness and we can breathe with it,

Call it by his name and embrace it,

That loneliness will disappear because suddenly you are there for that loneliness.

And I had a mentor in the monastery when we're novice,

Through our novice years and our early years of a fully ordained monk,

Which is after three years,

Five more years we have,

So eight years of mentorship.

And one of my mentors,

He shared with us the practice of hugging,

Hugging oneself.

So in Plum Village,

We have a practice of hugging meditation,

Which we practice to truly be present for the ones who is there and we would hug them with three breaths.

So before we hug,

We would join our palms and in our practice,

When we joined a palm,

It represents the body and mind coming together into oneness because we want to be truly present for the ones that we are bowing to.

And then we would embrace that person and it's not just a pat on the back and we're done.

But when we embrace that person,

We would breathe three deep in breath and out breath and each breath we have a contemplation.

The first breath we would say in our own self,

I am here for you.

Right?

That becomes a powerful sentence,

We call it a mantra.

And the second mantra we would say,

I know you are there and I am here for you.

And the third one is to contemplate impermanence,

Which is,

And I know one day,

All those that I love,

I will also let go of because that is the nature of reality is that there is impermanence.

And so in that hug,

We touch not only our true presence,

Their true presence and the nature of impermanence.

So our gratitude becomes tenfold,

Our happiness is increased.

We don't take our loved ones,

Our friends for granted just with a hug.

That is a practice.

And you see,

This doesn't belong in a monk,

Doesn't have to only be practiced in a monastery.

This can be practiced every day.

We have a chance to see our loved ones every day.

How do you see them?

How do you enjoy a cup of tea with them?

How do you embrace them?

Are you embracing them just because it's formality or are you embracing them because you are so nourished by their presence?

And are we reflecting on the impermanent nature?

And when you have that insight,

All of our shortcomings and our little anger,

Frustration will dissipate really quickly because there's so much more to life,

Right?

And when you cannot sleep,

We have the practice of total relaxation.

We know that sometimes the mind is so busy and that also makes us not able to ease into our sleep.

So what I would encourage you to do is to put your hand on your abdomen,

Your belly,

And you can just feel your in-breath and out-breath rising and falling with your stomach.

And you can even practice deep belly breathing so that your mind is not running to the past or running to the future.

And here we're not suppressing the mind,

But we're just guiding the mind.

So we allow our mind to be mindful of the breath.

And then if that becomes boring,

You know,

We can bring our attention to our face.

Is it relaxed?

We can smile to the face and then to the shoulders,

To our whole body,

And we can do a mindful scan.

And you know,

We have a Plum Village app,

Which has a lot of guided meditation,

And that can be a companion for us.

But our own mindfulness is the companion,

Which will always be with us.

And sometimes if you cannot fall asleep,

What I would do,

I would just go for a walk,

A gentle walk,

Walking meditation,

And then just come back and just to rest.

And you know,

The miracle of resting is also it is very healing.

So sometimes even when we cannot sleep,

We are restless and we're not truly being able to allow ourself to just relax.

And so this also increases our stress,

Right?

So learning to take care of the body is a true art,

Is a real art,

And it's a deep,

Deep training in our practice.

You mentioned about everybody that we love,

We let go of.

Everything we love,

We will let go of.

And you were Thich Nhat Hanh's attendant for over a decade,

And I'm sure love him deeply,

And were with him when he had a stroke,

And watched him lose some things that he loved as well.

I'm wondering if you could share a bit about that experience with Thay and how that shaped you and influenced you,

What you learned from it,

And what was also transmitted to you from him.

We have the five remembrance in Buddhism that is always taught to us.

The first remembrance is as a human being,

I am of the nature to grow old.

I cannot escape growing old.

The second remembrance is I am of the nature to grow ill.

I cannot escape being ill.

I cannot escape being sick.

The third one is I am of the nature to die.

I cannot escape death.

The fourth one is everyone that is dear to me,

Or anything that is dear to me,

One day I have to let go of.

And the fifth one is my true continuation,

My true legacy is my karma of body,

Speech,

And mind,

My three actions of my body,

My daily action,

My speech,

What I say,

And my mind,

My intention.

And even though we recite this and we are reminded of these five remembrance,

But when someone so profoundly impacted your life,

I thought I was ready because I was like,

Oh,

I'm a monk,

I'm Zen,

I know impermanence.

We chant this every day.

And I was really naive like that.

And I did forget a lot of the times being with Thay of that remembrance that we are of the nature to grow old.

We are of the nature to have to let go of the ones that we hold so dear to us.

And when our teacher was starting to get ill,

Which was in 2014,

I have been with Thay for a long time.

So I've seen Thay get sick,

But he's always overcome it.

And he's done it so gracefully,

Right?

He's so mindful of his energy and he knows how to rest.

He knows how to take care of himself.

So none of us expected a stroke though.

That was a surprise.

Was very early in the morning,

Around 5am,

I received the phone call from the brother who's in the hospital room,

Said,

Brother Phap Hu,

Something's happening.

Thay is reacting in a way that I don't understand.

Please come over.

So at this time we were in Bordeaux hospital and we were staying at a guest space for patient visitors.

So we ran,

The whole attendant crew,

We were around nine of us,

We ran over.

We were mindfully,

Worry,

Running over.

One pointed mind to the hospital room.

And when we arrived,

I was holding Thay and it wasn't normal.

Thay had to,

Now looking back,

The hemorrhage has already happened.

And so Thay was looking at us with the eyes of something just happened,

Please help.

And I was really lost for words and the only place that I dwell in at that moment was my mindful breathing because I don't know what to do.

And maybe we are in the best place of help,

Which is the hospital.

At this moment,

It's just,

I'm here for you,

Thay.

Yes,

I was looking at Thay's eye and I'm breathing.

And I am bringing all of my presence to offer the energy of compassion,

Love and healing to my teacher.

But I will never forget the look of Thay when he looked at me asking for support.

That look has penetrated really deeply in me.

And it reminded me no matter what,

We're all human beings.

We all need support.

Even a Zen master like Thich Nhat Hanh,

Even the Buddha needed the support in his day and age.

And so that was a very human moment with my teacher.

And the anchor that I stayed with was my mindful breathing,

Even all of the emotions that were coming up.

At that time,

Thay entered into a coma and Thay was breathing and I can hear his breath.

And feeling helpless,

Thay has taught us in any moment when you're helpless,

Your best friend is your mindful breathing.

And because I can hear Thay breathe,

So I was like,

I'm going to breathe with you,

Thay.

I don't know what to do.

But if you're going to go,

I want to go and send you off as you're breathing so that we're all mindfully breathing together.

And I remember all of us attendant,

We were around the bed and just breathing with Thay.

And some were sobbing,

Some were embracing each other.

And I just remember that the grief was present,

But the grief was held by love.

And that is what has allowed me to accept sadness.

So I was grieving and sometimes you have the thought,

Oh,

You've been practicing for so long,

You should be solid as a mountain,

You should have conquered all your emotions.

And then I understood that grief is also the meaning of love.

I'm grieving because I love my teacher so much.

He has allowed me to walk a path of service,

A path of beauty,

A path of non-violent,

Of peace.

And the list can go on and on and on.

But this was just,

This was for me,

This is love.

So the tears that was flowing from my brothers and sisters were tears of deep gratitude.

And miraculously,

Thay survived the stroke and Thay came out of the coma after six months.

I went through a lot of mental discussion.

I had the thought of like,

The world is so unfair.

And why does this have to happen to my teacher?

And I went on this rabbit hole of all these thoughts.

And every time I arrived there,

I always remember of the mindful walking.

And there's a gatha,

It says,

Our minds can go in 10,

000 directions,

But on this lovely path,

I walk with freedom.

And I was like,

I'm not free.

This is the reality.

I'm just creating more and more and more concepts and I am making it worse and worse.

So every time I went down this rabbit hole of complaining,

I start to,

Okay,

For who just mindfully walk,

Take refuge in your steps.

And then I start to be in touch with life again.

I'm like,

Okay,

The community is here.

My teacher is still here.

How can I support him?

How can I live my life so that I can be a continuation for him?

Because Thay has given me all of this practice,

Not to complain,

But Thay has given me all this practice in order to take care of the emotions that I am going through,

The suffering that I am facing.

And what I learned from Thay coming out of the coma and being one with the condition that he was in,

Because after the stroke,

Our teacher couldn't speak and he was paralyzed on the right side.

And the beauty of seeing him accept the situation that he is in was the deepest teaching for me.

And this is present moment,

Wonderful moment.

This is not a concept.

This is not intellectually a philosophy.

This was reality.

Thay was practicing smiling to the paralyzed side.

So we went through a whole process of trying to bring back as much movement in Thay's body.

So it was such a journey.

It was like seeing Thay be born again when we were trying to bring back feelings to his right hand.

So all of his books was written by this right hand.

And in a lot of talks,

He speaks about it and he always speaks about non-discrimination where he asked,

Do you think the left hand is jealous of the right hand?

And so he would go on this journey about how the two sides actually support each other.

If the left hand actually gets hurt,

The right hand will let go and come and just take care of it just as its own hand.

And this was a teaching of non-discrimination of how we all can be different,

But when there is suffering,

We know how to let go of our ego and to care for our other side just as we're caring for ourself.

And he always says,

And the right hand never says,

You know,

Left hand,

I'm taking care of you so you owe me one.

Right?

There's none of that dialogue.

It's so natural.

So we can actually just learn from our own body,

How the body has the insight of love and tenderness.

And so now Thay's right hand is not functioning,

It's paralyzed.

And I just will never forget this moment of his tenderness he offered to his right hand.

He mindfully looked at his right hand.

And with his left hand,

He started to put it,

Place his left hand on his shoulders,

Right shoulders,

And then his biceps,

Then his arm,

The wrist,

Holding the fingers,

And then placing the palm of the hand on his face.

And I was witnessing my teacher embrace suffering so tenderly.

And this is what I feel like,

What we're all missing.

Whenever we face suffering,

We want to fix it right away.

And we can be actually very violent with it.

Right?

We can be very violent with ourself.

Why aren't you working?

Why aren't you the way it was in the past?

And so this is again the cycle of suffering,

Of going back to the past,

Because we are so caught of how we were back then,

And we want to be exactly like that.

But we are of the nature of impermanence,

So we're always changing.

And so when I saw Thay take care of his paralyzed sides like this,

I said,

This is no self.

This is enlightenment.

This is it.

Thay was free.

And so I learned about the power of present moment,

That everything that we're doing right here right now is an impact to the past,

And is an impact to the future.

Because sometimes I also take it for granted.

I take my plumbed life for granted.

I said,

Oh,

Mindful breathing,

That's so basic.

But actually,

That is foundational.

That is fundamental.

And every time that I look back in my suffering,

Where did I always take refuge in?

My breathing.

That is such a beautiful,

Beautiful story.

And as you were talking,

The imagery of Thay and his self-compassion,

And then his compassion,

That sort of flow of compassion between you and himself and the greater community is very beautiful.

And I have another question from my son that I want to make sure we answer.

But I also brought in this little piece of wood that I brought back.

The nuns write some of the gathas on the wood,

Maybe backwards,

Because I'm holding it up to the screen here.

But this is a piece of wood that I picked up for many different reasons.

One,

To have in my office as a reminder.

Two,

This is the name of your podcast,

The Way Out Is In.

And I have a bigger version of this in my office.

But I'd love to discuss this concept of the way out is in.

Because many of us are feeling trapped.

And part of what makes us maybe hurry up or get busy or do things is because we're trying to get out of these feelings that we're having.

But Thich Nhat Hanh taught that the way out is in,

And now you have a whole podcast around this title.

So I'd love for you to share.

And then I have one more question from my son before we wrap up.

Yes.

I love this quote,

The way out is in.

This is my definition of meditation.

So why is it the way out is in?

We may think the way out is forward,

The way out is through.

But in Buddhism,

Our practice is always learning to transform our suffering in order to offer love,

Compassion,

Understanding,

And happiness to the world.

And our normal thought of life is we have to keep running and keep going towards something else outside of us.

And that leads to happiness,

That leads to success.

And the world that we're living in offers so many things outside to run away from ourselves.

So when we actually practice meditation,

The first practice,

The first wing of meditation is learning to stop,

Learning to come home to oneself.

Because we have such a habit of running towards the future.

We have a habit of running away from our suffering.

We have a habit of maybe even running towards an idea of happiness.

And after we accomplish something,

Then we continue to run towards the next.

So we're never satisfied.

We never feel that we are enough.

We never have the mindfulness of moderation,

That this is more than enough condition to be happy.

And so this has been transmitted to us,

Right,

From generations to generation.

And the second wing of meditation is looking deeply.

And to look deeply,

We have to have some quietness,

Some stillness to see things more clearly.

And we always use the metaphor of a lake.

When the lake is very still,

It reflects everything very clearly.

The trees that are around,

The clouds.

If there's a lot of clouds,

It will identify the cloud as it is.

So our mind is like that.

If it is still,

We will start to see our inner world very clearly.

We start to see our habits more clearly,

Our negative habits and our positive habits.

And we get to see what it is that is making us suffer,

Right?

Sometimes we are full of emotions,

But we never ask ourselves,

Why do I have this emotion?

Where does it come from?

And what is the way out of it?

So this is meditation.

And so in one of Thay's Dharma talk,

And if you watch the documentary called A Cloud Never Dies,

We put it in because it's so profound.

He draws this circle,

Which it embodies no beginning,

No end.

It is a continuation,

The continuation of everything.

And he draws an arrow inwards and he says,

The way out is in.

And he has this smile.

And he says,

We all need to learn to come inwards in order to transform the suffering that we're trying to run away from.

Because we have the perception that we are,

We need to take care of our suffering,

But the suffering is somewhere outside of us.

But in our teachings and in the Buddha's teachings,

Suffering begins from inside,

Because of course,

There are conditions that are outside that can impact our suffering.

But everything,

The true transformation in our meditation begins from inside.

So we have to come home to oneself,

Take care of ourself,

Take care of our feelings,

Our emotions,

Take care of our stability,

Take care of our judgment.

Can we be mindful of our mind,

How toxic it can become?

And it all begins from inwards.

And once that transformation starts to happen inside the outer world,

We can handle it and take care of the outer world with much more skillfulness and much more peace and nonviolent.

And when I say this,

It doesn't mean that whatever happens outside,

I accept.

No.

If something is wrong,

I know it is wrong.

If actions need to be done,

We will take action.

But how do we do it?

There is a way to take care of a situation that can offer more discrimination,

More violence,

Or it can offer more love.

And this is like,

I would say,

This is the fruit of our teachers' practice during the Vietnam War,

Which was there was so much violence,

So much suffering.

And he went in and he said,

What is it that is needed now?

And that is safety,

Love,

Care.

There's always a way to look at the suffering and how do we interact with that suffering.

It has to begin inside.

And we have a precept on anger.

When we are angry,

Don't act on it.

Don't say anything.

Don't do anything.

Come inward.

That's why the way out is in.

If you come inwards,

You will embrace your anger,

Recognize your anger,

Take care of your anger,

And then you take care of the situation with a different energy.

And normally the outcome will be much better than when you take care of that situation with the energy of anger.

Because anger is an energy,

But we can transform that energy into a different energy.

Yeah.

Thank you.

I'm going to ask you in a moment to lead us through a meditation to explore the way out is in maybe.

We will put that as a separate episode so folks can just go and use that meditation.

And I will add that you offer meditations at the end of your talks and your podcast of the way out is in,

As well as you mentioning the Plum Village app that we listen to as a family,

The total relaxation.

And I use a lot of the meditations in the morning.

There is so much there.

So it is a way of bringing Plum Village to your home if you have that desire to connect more with these teachings.

I have one last question for you.

And this comes from my son.

And it's a big question.

And I'm hoping that I can give you a really big question and then you can answer it with a very short answer.

I would try.

So that we have time for our meditation.

So this is a challenge,

But I think that actually Zen monks can take this challenge of taking something complex and simplifying it.

So here it goes.

This was actually his question that he asked me two nights ago.

And then I gave him an answer,

But then I thought,

We should ask this of Brother Phap Hu.

I think he probably has a better answer than I do.

I don't know where this came from,

But my son is a little,

He's probably,

He's a nine-year-old little Buddha.

So here's his question.

Any more questions?

Yes.

What is the point of life?

Because you're born,

You live,

And you die.

Very profound.

Very profound.

I think we can end the podcast with that question.

Very short.

Did he say,

What is the meaning or what is the purpose?

What is the point of life?

What is the point?

Meaning and purpose maybe,

I don't know.

The Phap Hu today,

This is his answer,

And maybe 10 years from now will be different.

But the point of life today is to offer unconditional love.

Because love is a beautiful source of energy that allows us to be the best version of ourself.

And it's like the sun that nourishes this earth,

When the flower is embraced by the unconditional source of the sun,

It will always blossom.

It will always bloom for us.

So love is the point of life,

And all of us have love in us.

So please nourish your love so you can have an unconditional energy of love to offer to your loved ones,

Your mom,

Your dad,

Your brother,

Your sister,

And then to all of us that is a part of this world.

Thank you.

Thank you.

You are just a beautiful transmission of all the teachings that you embed with storytelling,

Which helps them come to life.

And I really appreciate this time together.

And I would love to,

I can ring the bell if you would be willing,

If you can do an impromptu 10-minuter.

So I was off to get my bell because we recorded a 10-minute meditation right after our conversation.

And that meditation will be available to you as a separate episode.

It's lovely.

I highly recommend it.

And I can't wait to upload it so that I can use it myself as a morning practice.

I really enjoy short guided practices like the one that Brother Phap Buu offers us because sometimes I just need to lean on somebody else's wisdom and voice during my meditation.

I gleaned a lot from this episode and I'm sure you did too.

But to pare it down to three things for you to practice this week.

The first is to take care of your feelings.

There's a little sign in my son's room that says,

Take care of your feelings.

Whether it's anxiety or loneliness,

Like my son mentioned,

Or it's your irritability and anger,

Taking care of your feelings is naming them,

Calling them by their true name,

As Thich Nhat Hanh would say,

And saying hello to them.

So you can practice this.

When you have an uncomfortable feeling show up this week,

Say,

Hello,

Irritability,

I see you and I'm here for you.

Or hello,

Jealousy,

I see you and I'm here for you.

Or maybe it's hello,

Fear,

I'm here for you.

So take care of your feelings and notice how that changes things when you care for your feelings.

And the second practice has to do with your mindful presence.

My husband ordered an iPhone and the UPS person came to the door and she knocked on the door.

And I opened the door and she said,

I need eye contact to deliver this phone.

And I responded,

Don't we all,

Right?

Don't we all need eye contact?

So your presence matters a lot.

I loved how Brother Phap Hu talked about the moments of being present with Thich Nhat Hanh when he was in a coma and he was just breathing with him.

Being present for each other,

Whether it's the UPS person or somebody that's suffering or even yourself when you wake up in the night,

Is the medicine that we need more of right now.

So we can be present with our breath.

We can be present with our eye contact.

We can be present just by listening deeply to each other.

So practice being present where it matters most to you.

And the third practice for you this week is to contact the feeling of love.

The point of life is to love unconditionally.

So let's start doing it,

Folks.

Unconditional love.

And notice what love feels like in your body when you feel unconditional love for your pet or for the planet or for your mom or for your child or even for a stranger.

Start to cultivate unconditional love.

Reside in that place a little bit more because according to Brother Phap Hu,

This is the point of life and it's a good point to have in life.

Alrighty,

Thank you so much for joining me for this episode of Your Life in Process.

I hope that what you learn here will not only better your life but will spread,

Be a contagion to the lives of animals,

Plants,

Minerals,

People that you come into contact with.

Many blessings and enjoy Brother Phap Hu's meditation that will be coming up next.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Your Life in Process.

When you enter your life in process,

When you become psychologically flexible,

You become free.

If you like this episode or think it would be helpful to somebody,

Please leave a review over at Podchaser.

Com.

And if you have any questions,

You can leave them for me by phone at 805-457-2776 or send me a voicemail by email at podcast at yourlifeinprocess.

Com.

I want to thank my team,

Craig,

Angela Stubbs,

Ashley Hyatt,

And thank you to Ben Gold at Bell and Branch for his original music.

This podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only,

And it's not meant to be a substitute for mental health treatment.