The Inner Child Self (What is Now? Podcast)

Welcome to the What Is Now experience.

We begin with one minute of silence,

And then explore whatever arises.

So please join us for this one minute of doing nothing.

We begin with one minute of silence.

We begin with one minute of silence.

It was actually interesting to use a word and use this phrase in a child to meditate on that.

So I took that word in a child and I was just contemplating on it.

A lot of interesting things actually came out.

And I think this is for anyone who might be hearing this or if you're familiar with the way that we typically do this,

We generally don't have any intention or sort of topic in mind but we chose to just have a basic kind of idea in the atmosphere.

And we're going to take a look at this time and see what may or may not happen.

So we both done a fair amount of work,

Or whatever you might call it in this area of quote unquote inner child,

Which there's been a lot of.

It's become a popular notion.

We've done a course on it and we have a workshop coming up related to it so we thought we might have that kind of on the table for one of these what is now experiences.

Did you like,

Did you keep that word in your mind or was it more like experiential for you,

Or were you just not having that word and just spending that time in,

You know,

Silence,

The way we used to.

I was somewhere in between,

I think.

I moved more into just kind of a nothingness.

And towards the end I was noticing how nice it feels at least for me to be in an interpersonal context.

And even if there is a particular topic or agenda,

Or whatever you might call it,

To totally let go of having to prepare or think about what I'm going to say,

And just kind of trust that something's going to happen,

And it's going to be okay no matter what happens,

Which to me feels like it relates in some way to my sense of the inner child,

Like being able to.

It's almost like my adult self,

Creating a safe environment in which the child can explore freely,

It's like it's okay,

You're in this situation.

And it's okay to be curious and open you don't have to be any particular kind of way you don't have to impress anybody just know that I love you,

No matter what,

And whatever you do,

It's not going to change the way that I feel about you.

So,

See what happens in this next thing.

That's very interesting.

Yeah.

The feeling of being a child,

You know,

Also maybe,

As you said,

A sense of the child not having anything specific in the mind,

You know,

The way we like the way we do sessions other sessions like you know having a topic and discussing something,

But for a child what I can get from what he said is for a child.

It is more,

It is coming from a place of non attachment actually to any concept or any idea for a child which is,

You know,

I'll be,

I'll just be in this moment and I will see what happens and that's usually what children do right they don't have any specific direction as such.

So,

Was that the similar experience for you.

Yes.

And the nice feeling being like feeling totally at liberty to be in that space,

Like,

That's totally okay,

Versus maybe an anxious feeling that might creep in to say hey you better think of something or you're not going to,

You won't have something that won't be interesting or all that other more adult or adolescent or self conscious chatter comes into play that blocks.

I think that's what I would describe the more open unattached perspective,

It makes me think of the beginner's mind that the Shindo Suzuki quote of in the beginner's mind there are many possibilities but in the experts there are a few.

And the,

The ability to be in that space requires maybe some sense of,

It's going to be okay if I,

If I allow myself to be a beginner here.

Yeah,

Yeah.

What came up for you in the time.

It's interesting that you know,

It was a very different experience so for me just sitting with this idea of the inner child,

You know,

Had me a very open and explorative way of connecting with my inner child because usually like for example when we do guided meditations on inner child,

You know,

Or any guided work that usually there is more specific,

You know,

There are specifics to it in the sense that okay,

For example,

The guide is saying,

Go back to your,

You know,

Go back to your childhood and connect to this particular inner child self of yours and see what comes up.

So that is more of an idea of,

Okay,

You know that this is what I'm supposed to do and this is what I'm going so it's like a fixed way of doing things.

But when I just contemplated on this term inner child.

This was a more open approach,

So I could connect with anything that comes up for me,

You know,

I could connect with any form of childhood so there was no any fixed idea or fixed way of doing this.

It was a very open way and something very interesting happened right now was that I realized that my more child childish self in that sense was when I was actually in the university and not my early childhood.

Because my early childhood I realized that,

You know,

It was more of strictness it was more of being disciplined,

Because I was told to be disciplined since my childhood you know to stay disciplined and do,

You know,

Do specific things so might be that childish openness was not for me in my early childhood but that came in my university days when I went out,

You know,

And you know was not in,

Not in my family circle anymore and I could,

You know I explored these new relationships of friends who were not judgmental who did not ask me to be limited or you know disciplined in that sense.

And that's when actually my true child self came out where I was just doing what I felt like doing so I was making jokes and I was,

You know,

Doing all the notorious stuff,

As opposed to,

You know,

When I was in school and more disciplined and this was a very interesting insight that came up for me that you know that that more childish nature was for me in the university days.

Just makes me think of the term child,

In that sense like maybe it's not limited to actual age.

The kind of that I'm hearing you talk about it is,

It's related more to like freedom,

The capacity to just be whatever you feel like,

Or to not have to try to change something you think or feel in order to fit a certain expectation.

And in some way,

Being in that sense at least childish is like allowed to be yourself.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Exactly,

Exactly.

And it's,

It's,

You know,

It's such a,

Such a deep profound insight,

Because I could never have thought about this that my more that childish self was in,

You know,

In was later actually was not in my early years and as you said,

You know,

It is maybe not about time or is it not,

It's not about age actually,

But it is more of a state of being,

You know,

In that sense that if what for me then I would,

I will be more childish if I am just doing what I feel like doing and not thinking about any consequences,

What would happen if I do this.

So,

For me,

That childish self was more in the university because I did a lot of notorious stuff.

I never thought about the consequences.

So,

Yes,

Yes,

I think it's a profound insight that it is not about age but more about a state of being.

Did it feel then as though you were creating something new or,

Or recovering something that you had kind of lost touch with,

If that makes sense,

Did that feel like kind of movement into a whole new form of you,

Or still the recovery of something childish but maybe from way back before even kind of consciously remembering because by the point that you maybe develop memories you're already in that particular context kind of being fit into something that in this definition isn't necessarily childish.

Yeah,

Because,

You know,

In my,

In my school days,

For example,

I always wanted to be childish in that sense.

You know,

So what you're saying is correct because during my university days I connected to something which I could never connect to in my school days and in my school days I remember I would see children,

You know,

All around me like being notorious and I was kind of jealous because I was a very studious and disciplined child.

And I would,

You know,

I would be jealous of people who would be notorious who would like,

You know,

Make noises and not listen to teachers and,

You know,

Bunk classes and do all those things.

So I always felt like,

You know,

How can I become this and how can I do this,

Why am I not able to do this,

Actually.

So that desire of,

You know,

Of connecting to childhood which I,

Which I couldn't fulfill in my school days or early early childhood.

That,

That university space gave me that space to connect to that.

So what my peers would do in school,

I started doing that in my university because I had a deep desire of doing all those notorious things.

So I would never get good marks in my university,

I would always trouble other students,

I would always trouble teachers and I would bunk classes and I would do all those things.

So,

Yes,

I was actually,

You know,

Kind of reconnecting to that childhood state which I could never do in my early childhood.

So it was a part of you that you were in touch with growing up,

Like you knew it was there but it didn't,

You didn't sort of have a space or didn't feel like you could be that way.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Exactly.

It like kind of stayed limited inside the body,

It could not come out because of,

You know,

Fears of what would people say or,

You know,

What would my parents say or teachers say.

But the,

You know,

The kind of the persona that I had in my childhood more,

Which usually people have in later years.

I had that in my childhood more and that persona dissolved when I was in university.

So there's something about that environment that enabled that part of you to sort of be released or experimented with.

Was that something you anticipated going to university or did you go there and it kind of just happened?

It was because,

It was because I was out of my,

So I was living separately then,

Not with my parents and I was out of that judgmental space or,

You know,

Being controlled in any sense because earlier in my school days my mother would kind of take care of my studies and be very concerned.

But what happened after in my university days was that she was then not concerned.

She was like,

Okay,

Now,

You know,

He's an adult and he can take care of himself.

So that was very freeing for me.

So and when I went into the university,

I saw that I think it was also about the people that were around me.

So in school I was around,

I made this friend circle which was very studious,

Which was very disciplined because my kind of my parents almost chose those people for me.

And,

You know,

I was with them always.

So that was kind of the feeling that,

You know,

And we always discussed in this circle that no,

No,

You know,

We shouldn't break rules and we should listen to the teachers and we should get good marks and do all those things.

But thankfully in my university days I was with a more notorious group,

Which was like,

You know,

Let's just not,

You know,

Not worry about studies and not worry about all these things and let's just enjoy college life.

So that was a profound shift for me because,

You know,

I thought that,

Yes,

This was something new to enjoy college life,

You know,

And I never thought that this is something we can do in educational institutions.

So it was a very,

Very,

In that sense,

Relieving for me to just be myself and do whatever I feel like doing.

Did it feel like moving into almost the opposite extreme?

It was actually more,

I actually became aware of my passions and my interests more because earlier I would study,

For example,

Only those things that I'm supposed to study,

You know,

For getting good grades.

But in university,

It was like,

I was not studying,

I was just doing what I want to do,

But I would study only those things that interest me because I was not at all concerned about grades anymore.

So that was the shift.

Yeah,

It just makes me think of,

Are you,

Maybe I've mentioned this before,

We've talked about it in the book,

The Alchemist.

Have you read that?

Yes,

Yes.

And the concept of one's personal legend.

Do you remember that from the book?

Yeah,

It was like the notion of one's personal legend and he had it capitalized P and L.

And so this is like the sort of universal path that is part of you at your core,

Your most authentic being,

And at least per my sort of understanding or memory of it,

It's almost like it's laid out from the beginning of your life.

And the universe,

Quote unquote,

Is constantly sending you what he called omens that are leading you along the path to reveal your personal legend in your life,

Whatever that might look like.

So if you're open,

Then you'll constantly be presented with these things that are coming,

Different experiences that are guiding you into the sort of the next action to take along the path of your particular authentic personal legend.

And so,

What it's just as you're talking,

Thinking maybe,

Maybe this happens for so many of us that in some way growing up,

There's a barrier built between oneself and their personal legend,

Due to the,

What you're told you should be,

What,

Like what your path should be or what the legend of a good successful person in this particular part of the world in this culture in our family does so you learn to fit yourself into that.

And then at the same time you're creating a barrier between you and these omens that the universe is sending you.

And I remember in the book it's like,

If you,

If you stop listening to them,

They're going to stop presenting themselves as they're like well this person is not listening to me anymore what's the point of showing myself to them.

And,

And then potentially reaching a point where something happens,

And you develop,

You sort of re-sensitize yourself to the omens from the universe and break down some of this barrier of the rules of life that have been ingrained in you from either your family or society or whatever it might be,

And to develop an increased perceptiveness to be able to see the omens that are coming and then that can lead you to increasingly fulfill,

Get back on the direction of that personal legend,

And then the more you do that maybe the more omens are just sort of constantly presenting you to fulfill that path but maybe that no one else could tell you what that path is.

That's just what,

Like I was sort of envisioning you in early life,

Kind of like this,

This barrier being created around you into to mold you into a particular way of being and then reaching a point at college or university where for a couple of different reasons it sounds like it sounded like your mom was maybe a part of it too like she allowed you in some way to then be a child or like be reborn like you're adult now you can sort of be a child in a way and then it's like one layer of the barrier removing and then being in a context around other people that it seems like they're also just kind of walking that path themselves further the layer dissolves,

And then sort of move into that path.

Yeah,

Yeah,

I think,

As the other word that I would say for these omens can also be like you know as Carl Jung said synchronicities,

Messages of following your own path.

What I'm curious to know what,

What is that for you what is,

You know,

To be more specific about the question.

What was your most childish self in that sense,

What was that age for you,

You know,

What was that state of when did you feel very childish and very open,

And I'm putting a positive connotation to childish air you know,

Being yourself totally where you felt that,

Okay,

I'm just you know maybe enjoying life and being myself and this is the best,

The most time,

I feel connected to myself actually.

Yeah,

Good question.

It is interesting to just like,

I think it's always a useful exercise to inquire into the meanings of words and the automatic connotations of words like childish because it could automatically be perceived as stupid or immature or whatever it might be but here,

We're referring to it and a pretty positive connotation of openness and authenticity,

Freedom.

And I think maybe like in so many other ways that you and I seem to line up as we continually find.

I mean the first thing that I think of is probably late 20s.

Like,

When I went to my PhD program.

I had just recently gotten out of a long term relationship,

And had kind of been on a path of self awareness,

Meditation,

Reading,

And,

And then moving into that environment,

It was almost like my version of your,

Of,

Of university.

Now in this new space in a whole new location.

And with new people,

And sort of free to be whoever I wanted to be in that moment.

And,

And then I think that sort of unlocked more of a life of freedom of authenticity of then just continuing to question what are the other things that are limiting me or what are the other parts of this barrier that don't really have to be here.

But yeah,

I mean funny that being at,

That was probably like 27 or something like that.

Although I do remember,

It's funny for me to reflect back on,

I think,

I was probably like 10,

9 or 10,

Maybe something like that.

It's hard for me to get a good grasp on the ages of kids in school and I don't have that great of a sense of it.

But there was a certain point when I,

A friend of mine went out for the lead in a play in a school play.

And I was just like,

Well,

That's kind of interesting I want to do that too.

And I and I did and then I was there were,

They had several leads of the play they all like there were three or four people that played the same character and different scenes.

And I was up in front of the,

Like,

The whole school and parents and doing this play,

Which it seems so crazy in contrast,

And in the context of the rest of my life and of like the story of me that kind of developed as a super introverted quiet anxious person who if there was ever any certainly giving a presentation but even in like with a couple people around,

Definitely with a few more people around be very anxiety provoking for any focus to be on me.

When I was talking.

And so,

I mean I have a couple of different hypotheses about what like evolved or happened between that time.

And it's really interesting for me to look back and reflect on that experience so I wonder if you know at that point I felt very much so not introverted or inhibited although I think I was,

At least as I remember and have been told I've always been.

I was never super extroverted or loud necessarily but at that point maybe I felt pretty uninhibited were doing something like being in a school play was not scary,

But to imagine myself in later years like in high school and certainly an undergrad for me where I was like terrified of presenting or talking in a social context that would have just been like hell to imagine doing that is just like,

It's just kind of crazy so I mean maybe there was some period there of a lot of freedom.

And then the development of my self conscious version of me that may be inhibited by childish self to a significant degree,

Though I think that was released in maybe this is an interesting part of the inner child self to like particular context within your life,

Even if the majority of you is inhibited to have certain areas of your life where that is somehow released or expressed because I played basketball,

Like all growing up in my life.

And I would feel very happy to have people watching and like you know performing in a sense and I just I loved doing that so much.

But as I'm thinking about it you know I didn't have to say anything.

I didn't have to like put together anything intellectually it was just like a physical performance of something that I felt very confident in.

So something very different but like in that context I felt,

I felt fine and I felt great actually being seen.

So there's just a couple things that I think of.

Yeah that's so interesting you know and again I think this is a very you know I don't know about you because you have been in this work maybe for a long time you know inner child because that's your field.

But for me this is a very new perspective of looking at the inner child where you know your inner child is actually for me then not limited to a certain age.

You know where it comes out or where it is affected but it is actually you know for me then it is my most childish self in that sense which is you know which is very free and very not concerned about what other people are thinking which has let go of all this persona and the masks that we wear.

So,

You know,

That is something which is very wonderful for me because you know I think that I can approach this work now in a different manner,

Where I'm connecting to those instances or those parts of my life,

Where I felt that my childish self actually came out and you know that can be really empowering.

Yeah,

And you mentioned,

Like maybe I've been in this area for some time just through the lens of the psychology field,

But I think we also maybe match up on how limiting it can be when when something like this becomes kind of a fixed concept,

Like,

This is what the inner child is and this is how you do inner child work you do this step and then you unlock this version of you and so on and so forth.

I say that,

And I have,

I noticed I have kind of a sarcastic tone and I don't mean to minimize any work that anybody does,

Which you can do it however is helpful for you,

But I know for me.

It's just a concept like it's a word,

And,

But I think the idea is really interesting and when it becomes something like rigid,

Maybe then you're kind of turning something childish in the way we're talking about it into something more like adult,

Or you're taking the inner child into something that should be a certain way and so potentially missing the point of how this thing could be liberating or freeing.

I kind of like the idea of doing quote unquote inner,

Because even like inner child work.

I haven't thought of it like this before but there you're like,

I'm just imagine a child with their suitcase.

That was called,

Like,

When you're going to work like a child wearing a business suit,

And they're,

You know,

Going into the office to do their inner child work like it's just like a very serious thing.

But I guess yeah the way I view it that could be kind of missing the point.

I love the idea of doing quote unquote inner child work but without any rules like it could be like the,

Like the visualization practice that I do,

Where it's like go in,

Go in,

What does any of this stuff mean like you know I'm here I'm not going anywhere but I'm,

I'm just like feeling into the experience of remembering or imagining some other quote unquote other part of me but it's still happening in the present moment,

And in a way that other part of me is still just me as me as my conscious thinking mind is so I can imagine the me from when I was 10 that went out for the play,

And I don't know exactly what they look like but I can get kind of a sense of them standing on the stage.

And then I might be able to have a conversation with them,

Like,

How are you so confident to be able to do this is crazy.

And I can just imagine their response like what do you mean it's like there's no big deal.

Then we could go back and forth and there's something I just feel like a lightness to that interaction in which maybe that could impact my daily life in a way of like just remembering something that's so obvious to a part of me like,

Who cares,

No big deal.

And then to allow it to happen in that kind of creative imaginative way.

That's the way I make sense of,

Like the inner child and find any sort of ongoing use to it,

It's just to not be attached to it being anything,

But just maybe a way of getting in touch with parts,

Quote unquote,

Of ourselves to feel more whole and more able to like release my childish self in the sense that we've been talking about it.

Yeah,

Exactly.

And,

You know,

As you were saying it I can,

I can listen to this voice of my childish self which I feel like is my childish self which I feel connected to now.

I think I would,

If we are supposed to give labels then I would give this label childish self which is,

As you said that,

As you were saying this,

This voice was telling me,

You know,

Just chill man,

You know,

Just enjoy life.

Like why are you so serious and why are you,

You know,

Attaching yourself to concepts and to ideas just just like relax and,

You know,

Enjoy life this life is about enjoyment and just be yourself be notorious,

You know,

Be,

Be,

Be,

Just be a rebel,

You know,

Just do whatever you feel like doing and like let go of anything which is,

Which is of the past,

Which is of the known,

You know,

All these concepts and all these ideas.

It's just holding on to them.

Step into the unknown,

Rather than staying attached to the known step into the unknown and feel the fire of it,

Feel the passion of it,

Feel the thrill of it,

Feel the uncertainty of it.

And that's where,

You know,

Kind of magic will happen,

Allow yourself to like kind of jump into the void into the unknown and,

And just see what happens and just just chill.

This is a message that I'm getting.

Yeah.

I wonder if that's something powerful about imagining your child self in this way,

Because it's that's something so simple,

But if maybe if you hear that from someone else that's like hey just chill or just relax like it's not a big deal you might have like a no,

Like,

I'm not going to really listen to that,

I might get it intellectually.

But I might be like,

You don't really know what I'm dealing with or I might just have more of a defensive that might feel like an accusation or something like that as opposed to hearing it from my own self.

In that way,

I might be able to take that.

Yeah,

This just reminds me.

I think I heard that the term wisdom described in this way one time I thought that was it was just kind of a cool way of phrasing it that wisdom is the ability to take your own advice.

And because I think we can know so many things intellectually,

That,

Like would make my life,

Much better.

I know all these things but I don't actually do them or embody them on a regular basis.

So maybe,

Like the value of this,

Like the inner child kind of practice or getting in touch with these parts of yourselves can help you actually take the advice of that part of yourself like something so simple as,

Hey,

Relax,

They're just chill,

It's okay.

In a way that you can actually hear it and then it's like I just feel like my shoulders drop like oh yeah,

Like,

It's like I'm remembering something that's that I know it's not a big deal.

But it's hard for me to actually act on that.

Have you ever heard the term psychotherapy.

No,

It's a term within this within the therapy world in which,

And I'm sure you're familiar with this process happening of working with someone over the course of time.

And from the beginning,

It might seem like kind of the answer is,

Is very obvious.

Maybe if this person just acted on this thing that it would solve the thing that they're struggling with.

But for whatever reason it's really,

It's hard to actually put that into action in their life,

Maybe for a variety of reasons.

But,

So,

Quote unquote psychotherapy would be like the repetition of that whenever it feels relevant of that same basic thing like you know I noticed this is coming up again,

And it's kind of that same thing but it feels really hard to actually put it into action and then it's like again and again and again and again until that one moment for like whatever variety of reasons in which the person is open enough.

Yeah.

And like the certain context of their life might.

I mean maybe they've reached kind of the peak of suffering or something or they did something might have happened where in that one moment.

They hear it like for the first time and it's able to reach down through all the layers of protection and control to actually hit on the felt level,

And they get this really simple message that has been there the whole time but they're like,

Oh,

Oh yeah.

And the same thing.

Yeah,

I get it now.

And on in a way where there's actually,

I imagine a physical internal shift,

Like you feel something differently.

Like I'm thinking of maybe the words like,

You know,

It's not your fault that this happened.

And they might intellectually know.

Yeah,

I know that.

But on some level,

Maybe like a child version of themselves really feels that way,

And it's still like holding on to something being my fault.

Because maybe if it's not my fault,

Then it means I have to accept it being either someone else's fault or no one's fault that this like bad thing maybe happened or,

Or it's been a big part of me.

So to for it to change maybe means like almost like a grief process of losing something that's been around even if it's been a barrier it's like it's been there,

It's really familiar.

And it might just take getting through in a certain moment of openness something that may be so simple.

Yeah,

Yeah,

Yeah,

Absolutely.

And,

You know,

When you said about this child,

Saying it's not my fault it's also like,

You know,

Kind of this desire to blame it on someone,

You know that there has to be someone at fault.

So why not put myself at,

You know,

At fault because I'm very compassionate towards other as this child,

Others.

I don't want to blame anyone else my parents my,

You know my,

My siblings or friends,

I start blaming myself.

And,

You know,

That's when I say but yes,

You know,

It's it's it's it's a good learning and,

You know,

This happens that we kind of keep listening to the same things but then comes one point where it's like a light bulb opening inside,

Switching on inside us.

Right.

Yeah.

So,

And I was also thinking about,

You know,

When you mentioned.

And when we were talking about this childish self of saying you know that just chill and you know just relax.

I was also thinking about how this adult self kind of worries about a lot of things,

You know,

Let's take the basic example of finances,

Like,

I would worry about finances as an adult,

You know,

Because that is what I'm supposed to do as an adult that is what the society has been telling me,

You know,

You should worry about all these things you should worry about,

You know,

The family stuff the finances and all these things.

But now when I connect to this,

You know,

Double quote childish self of mine is,

You know,

I can see that that childish self of mine in those university days was someone who was never worried about finances,

You know,

Who would who would I was broke at that time a lot of times I you know I remember those instances when I would,

You know,

Kind of literally pull my pocket out of my pants,

And see that I don't even have a single coin in my pocket.

And it was a moment,

And it was a moment of laughter the way the way we are laughing right now about it.

I would laugh at that time and I was I would like joke to my friend see I'm broke now you know,

It was as if it was something wonderful as if it was something exciting to be in that state.

But now when I would,

You know,

When I would sit at my house with,

You know,

I've been grown as an adult.

Again grown would be in double quotes actually as an adult now in sitting in my house and you know all these things that I have to do worry about my work and finances and family and all these things.

Now I'm so stressed about it you know whenever I would get into a similar situation I would start feeling this stress and this worry.

So my childish self is now telling me that just chill man this is this is a wonderful place to be in this this is a place of the unknown,

Something wonderful might come out of this and it's so exciting to get groovy broken start building up again and you know,

Then we start valuing small things in life,

You know,

So just in this example of finances,

Even if I for example get hundred bucks tomorrow that will be so value much more valuable to me than when I'm getting hundred bucks when I already have a lot.

Right.

So,

So it's really profound and I feel that you know this is something that I would really like to do as a practice of connecting to this,

You know,

Childish self of mine,

Which is absolutely free of any worries and which is just chilling.

Right.

And I think of,

I wonder if there's,

There may be such a tendency or urge especially as we get older,

Or move into quote unquote adulthood to move more into a stance of control or grasping over finances or all the different things that we then become responsible for.

And it was making me.

As you were speaking I had the image of a tree and branch out from a tree and apple tree and the one little twig sprouts out a baby apple.

And at that point it's like,

It's fun you know it's it's Apple self but it's also not attached to being its Apple self it's connected to the branch and it's like,

Well,

This is just cool.

Then it gets bigger and bigger.

And maybe the apple starts to become aware of its fleeting nature,

And that it's not going to be an apple forever.

And it's noticing maybe it's like there's like some spots that aren't as perfect as they were before,

Maybe there's some awareness that it's going to fall to the ground,

Maybe someone will eat it or maybe it will just rot and move back into the earth or whatever it is,

Making me think of maybe some inevitable tendency for the apple to like really resist embracing the apple self on an everyday momentary basis just as the original kind of baby apple could,

Because now I'm getting some sense of like,

Oh,

I gotta get control over this thing because I'm losing,

I'm losing my,

I'm losing who I am or what I am because it's attached to being this apple.

Yeah,

Yeah and I can think of,

You know,

That little apple also getting influenced by bigger apples,

Telling this little apple,

You should worry about your state and earlier it was it wasn't worrying but now after listening to these bigger apples,

I started worrying.

Yeah,

You see all of them worrying.

And I guess maybe then it just it just makes me think of like great teachers or guides.

These,

These particular apples you're like oh there's something different there and like they don't seem to be struggling at all.

Yeah,

And they maybe they remind you of your original apple nature and it's like hey,

Relax,

It's okay,

You're going to fall off the tree branch,

And there's no problem with that.

Yeah,

That was part of the whole thing from the very beginning.

And you were even part of this tree,

All the way back before it even came out of the ground and then you can like re-spark some of that curiosity just about existence like oh,

Okay,

I can like relax again.

And then maybe inevitably the tightness comes back up because you have all these influences of the other apples that are like,

What do you mean this is very serious.

And then,

I guess,

Hopefully you have.

It makes me think of like a Sangha,

Like a community of other apples that are also kind of in on the secret and it's like hey it's okay even in the midst of society.

And it's the best that you can realize it's not really a big deal.

And,

And that's it.

I kind of like that,

This visual that we've created.

Yeah,

It's so beautiful.

And I can also think of how these bigger apples,

You know,

The adders around us.

You know,

It's such,

I would say that for a child to go to school is actually a good thing because,

You know,

This small apple is actually coming in touch with other small apples that are not concerned.

But in an adult environment,

You know,

With parents and with,

Excuse me,

With teachers,

With all these adders,

The worry kind of,

You know,

Is put into the child where the adders are expecting this child to behave like an adult.

But this child is not an adult actually.

Right?

Because they are,

What their expectation is,

Okay,

If this child is there,

Then this child should behave like us.

So we will discipline this child.

We will tell this child what to do.

But maybe if we can have more acceptance for that child,

To be the child.

And maybe,

You know,

I remember and,

You know,

For those listeners who don't know,

If you allow me to mention this,

That,

You know,

Something that is coming up for you.

Sure.

Are you comfortable to share?

Yeah,

Sure.

So you mentioned previously that,

You know,

Your wife is expecting and,

You know,

This beautiful little child would come into the world and maybe that will be an opportunity for you to become that child rather than.

And that was very profound actually where you said something very different where rather than making this child become an adult like you,

You would learn from this child and maybe that will be an opportunity for you to become a child.

So,

You know,

This,

When we do that as parents,

When we,

Rather than making that child an adult,

We can learn from,

You know,

That child and become a child.

I think that will kind of let go of all those worries.

And,

You know,

I think our inner child is affected only when our parents or when our teachers or all those people around us,

They kind of pushed us so hard to become adults so soon,

You know,

Rather than staying a child for a long time.

Yeah,

I'm glad you mentioned that too.

Because yeah,

I can imagine,

Just be such a great possible teacher of so much stuff that it's just hard to remember the simplicity of life through all the layers and layers of complication that,

You know,

Begin in language and then add all of my experiences and it's hard to not feel so much of the momentum of my thinking mind that is grasping for control,

But maybe to have a little person as the teacher in that sense I can teach them about the world and about the tree and the other apples and what this kind of process has been like for me but also view this,

The little apple is a reminder of something so pure that I can maybe remember and feel in myself,

And what a beautiful thing and we're just sort of like part of this ongoing miraculous process.

Absolutely,

Absolutely it's profound and I'm so glad that we did this today,

You know,

In this way that a very open approach to and this is something maybe we can explore in the future as well,

Right.

So today it was within a child and maybe some other phrase and some sessions of,

You know,

What is now like that,

Where maybe in one session we are not having any phrase in mind just open experience and maybe in another one we come up with phrase.

Because this was very profound for me in the sense that now I see this inner child in a very different lens and you know it's a great insight that came up today,

Especially with this childish self of mine which I can,

So rather than having that fixed idea of wanting to go back in the childhood,

I can go back to any of those moments in my life where I felt like a child,

Where I felt that childishness coming out and this is very profound for me.

Yeah.

Yeah,

I like the idea of this to this,

This sort of iteration of what is now in terms of having a possible thing that's on the table,

Because inevitably we will discover something new about it.

When we move into it in this,

What is now kind of stance of things because there still is no plan,

There's this thing it's like,

Well here's let's see what happens when this ingredient is put into the mix,

And then we'll inevitably find something new.

I love this,

This tree,

This apple tree imagery I feel like that's going to really stay with me,

Probably be useful with people that I work with or just to think about myself now I want to put it in the book that I'm writing this.

I love visuals like that can be so just fun and also like I think very helpful for understanding.

Yeah,

Like deep profound concepts that I think you missed the point when you try to understand them in an intellectual direct way but to feel because nature is providing these truths.

If you just look at something,

It's it the whole thing is there like an apple tree will show you the truth of the universe.

If you just look at it and are open to it,

It's going to fit into a metaphor perfectly for enlightenment or whatever the truths are that we try to understand and pursue,

Like,

It's there,

If we're just open.

So,

Yeah,

Thanks for.

I can't really do that on my own.

It's,

It's kind of has to unfold in a interpersonal way where you bounce it off and then it's sort of like the tree literally grows through that kind of bouncing thing.

The phrase that's coming to my mind for this is mindful brainstorming.

Yeah.

There's a quote from and maybe we can we can finish here,

And a quote goes something like this I think it.

I believe it's from a stoic philosopher and maybe it's Epictetus,

That the quote goes something like,

You can't learn what you think you already know.

It entails allowing,

You have to enable this unknown which is maybe the hardest thing to actually do.

Yeah,

Bang on absolutely and you know something similar I think Albert Einstein also said when he said that,

You know,

The problem cannot be solved from the same consciousness that created.

So,

For that we have to step into some other state of,

You know,

Consciousness,

Maybe,

You know what the unknown is,

And from there,

A problem can be solved,

It can be solved on the same level of thinking actually.

I really like that.

Could you say that again.

It's something I'm not sure if it is the exact word but it is something like a problem cannot be solved from the same level of consciousness,

From which it was created.

Yeah,

Awesome.

That's good.

Well,

And if you're listening to this if you,

If you're listening to it on a platform where you can leave a comment on the particular session.

If you wanted to you could,

If you think of something that you would like to hear in terms of one of these,

Like a topic for a session,

Feel free to share that.

But there's definitely plenty that we could think of on our own.

Yeah,

Absolutely.

And,

You know,

One last thing for the listeners,

Maybe,

You know,

Just a contemplation if you can find time today or whenever,

You know,

To contemplate on this.

What was your,

What is your childish self and,

You know,

What was that time for you in your life where you felt most childish in that sense,

The way we discussed it.

So I can,

That can also be a potential in a charity practice.

Sounds good.

It's always very nourishing to spend time with you,

And I look forward to next time.

Same here,

Same here.

Take care.

Thank you for joining us in the what is now experience.

We hope that you liked the episode.

If there were any insights or ideas arising for you as you were listening to our conversation,

Then you can share those ideas through your comments.

We would love to know.

Stay tuned for the next episode.

Namaste.