Grief Dreams With Joshua Black

Well Joshua welcome to coming back I am so excited to have you here and to share your story As many of our grief growers know on coming back I was a guest on your show on grief dreams sharing some dreams about my mom and about the loss of her and how she has come to me in dreams over the years since her death and I'm so excited to kind of turn the tables with you and have you share your lost Story and tell our listeners how you came back as well.

So can you start us off with your lost story?

Yes before that I'd like to just say thank you for having me on so my lost story I guess to Understand it fully I guess have to sort of talk about my relationship with my father And we didn't really have a good one growing up.

He he was very authoritarian He didn't show love the way,

You know,

I wanted to or here to have love get shown at me He didn't attend and serve a lot of stuff I wanted him to attend so we really had a discord for the most of our lives and was really afraid of him To tell you the truth.

So I stayed a lot of my time in my room I didn't and so as I grew up we just never had a bond But then what happened was my mom and him separated after he got intoxicated one night and I did some crazy stuff and so they separated and There was about a period there about a year that it was six months I think that I didn't talk to him at all and then he left that the house that where he was staying at and then we moved back into the house and That's when I I was thinking what really happened here,

You know with him.

So I Went and I sort of talked to him and and I started building a relationship that way.

So after After all that so I said like that six months I started like talking to him as a more of an adult understand trying to understand why he drank why he did all this sort of stuff and From there.

We actually start building a relationship which was very interesting because that's not why I intended to go there I wanted answers and then I wanted to leave him alone,

Right?

But I actually started learning a different side of him which I never sort of thought about before so anyways was about I think two years there there's a gap maybe that we're building this friendship and Then what happened was he was going to pick me up one day to go to a hockey game in town and I was waiting and I was waiting and nothing actually he never showed up and He's been known to like fall asleep and not show up at different times.

So I just thought okay.

Yeah He'll call me when he wakes up and whatnot.

So anyways that whole day went by and didn't call me So then I called him and nothing there was no answer and I'm like,

Okay So then I got a call I believe it was the next day or the day after from my aunt who said they Found my father and he was dead and I said,

You know what?

And they're like,

Yeah,

They they had a he didn't go to some other events and so they got worried So they broke down the door and then he was found dead in the bathroom You know that really shook me because it was the first time I've ever experienced a loss I have someone significant my life and someone I've just really developed his bond I was getting something that I never got as a child that I always wanted,

You know And then for him to sort of die it really opened up this huge wound inside of me and I just started crying I couldn't I couldn't believe it,

You know,

Like I always thought if grief did happen to me.

It'd be like a bad breakup Yeah,

Not really the same thing I found So I just started crying and then I remember of just like all the memories I tried to like remember every memory that I had with him As a way to like keep him close and I was getting really discouraged because I couldn't remember the memories and it really broke my heart I was talking some Some wild stuff in the sense of dating this woman at times Like I'm gonna I'm gonna drop out of school has in my undergrad that time.

I'm gonna drop out of school I'm gonna go to Israel That's what he wanted for for me to do with him and she's like calm down like come back over this way You got to finish school,

You know And I'm glad she was there because I was just I was making irrational decisions in my mind as a way to almost Say how much I loved him in a way,

But the issue was that like yes I had the the friend or the the girlfriend that was helping me get back to school but she'd never really experienced a loss in her life either so she didn't really know how to handle my own suffering and As a as a guy,

I didn't really know how to process my suffering so what I did was I just suppressed it and I went back to school and Then there was a three-month gap there where I was just I was just numb like there was no happiness I was just doing the old routine stuff and it was uh Yeah,

Looking back.

It was just more of a blur.

I just like I did what I need to do to survive I guess the best way to put it and to maintain the grades in school and it was a great distraction at that time.

I kind of want to go back to to something that you touched on and said about these actions of trying to bring back memories or going to Israel to kind of Keep this relationship alive or keep honoring your dad's memory or kind of keep that dream relationship you had as a kid Going in real life.

I think a lot of grievers are afraid that once their loved ones die and That they process their grief or even if they start working on their grief that they're gonna lose all of their memories as a result Not only will you lose some of the pain and some of the guilt and some of the remorse of the relationship But you'll lose the memories that came along with it.

Can you speak to your experience of Your memories of your dad have they come back to you.

Do you feel you've lost more or gained more how?

Have memories kind of existed for you as a topic within grief at the beginning It was yeah,

It was just like you said and then what I found I sort of just figured that's how it was And but as I move forward I realized different events are triggering memories in me that I thought I forgot about So then I realized I've never actually forgot about anything.

I just need things to trigger the memories to come out and That made me a lot happier Because I'm like,

Oh,

Okay,

They're still in there.

I just can't find them.

Like I can't just like retrieve them at will There's things that need to occur and it's also,

You know,

Like when it happens I get actually really happy because oh I forgot about that.

I remember that and so I can like sit with that memory In such a sweet place because I didn't sort of I couldn't retrieve it myself to be able to sit with it It was a beautiful thing.

So for anyone who is you know on that journey like they do come in different points in your life So you haven't really forgot about them and as I move forward I sort of became less attached to memories as a way to I guess love my father and more now it's just like continuing this relationship now and we're where I believe he is and That is my own memory and my dreams is the other big thing of sort of making new memories that with them When did you?

Kind of wake up for lack of a better term and say oh my gosh I'm grieving like this.

I need to do something about it as opposed to the numbing out and forging ahead.

I don't know if I actually I actually sat down and said you know what it's time that I work on this.

I Wish I did.

Yeah,

I wish that was like they can have like you guys can do it too,

But And you can but you know like for me that really wasn't the way it went like I probably would've been stuck in that rut for a long period of time if it wasn't for a dream and so this is why I have such a passion and love for The dreams in my own life because it was the first one I had the thing that changed my whole grief around and I haven't Been the same since I'm so excited.

I've got shells.

I'm so excited about this story Want me to tell you the dream?

Yes,

Absolutely All right,

So I went to bed the one night and in the dream I wake up in my bed and I look to my left and I could see my room for exactly what it was and there's just stuff everywhere Hey,

Like every detail is exactly the same as it was in waking life Which was very different for me and like other dreams I've had I've never had a dream of my room with all the clutter that was there at the time and being it so like I knew where everything was and I look and there's my father and he's looking through some of my clutter and He he looks well and he I get up and I go walk for me turns around he's smiling I said dad,

You know,

I'm I'm really gonna miss you and I was acknowledging the loss at that moment and I said I loved them and I hugged them and I woke up and the crazy thing when I woke up was I felt different like something shifted inside me and The happiness was back.

I could you know,

I could feel joy again and I can't I still this day I I really can't explain it Rather than I had those sort of blocks in me because I didn't get a chance to say goodbye I didn't I wasn't I didn't tell him I loved them as much as I probably could have and So those are I think two big things that looking back like it helped with that and the environment of love That just the the energy of love because he he was in a in the dream in a way I've never seen him in waking life either like he was very peaceful and that's something you know He had a lot of traumas and struggles in life that he hadn't worked through so to see him that way too and just being This I guess energy of love Dream was so vivid and I just woke up and I said,

Oh wow.

I just like sat on my bed just like Not knowing what just happened,

But I could feel I was different and it went back to school finished my stuff the big thing was I didn't tell anyone about the dream though,

Which which is was very surprising to me looking back now because It was one of the most impactful things in my grief journey But yet I didn't tell anyone like I really kept it,

You know Like safe in my own sort of in my own mind and then every three About three months or so.

He would come in with these vivid Dreams and each dream was a little different one of my more interesting Dreams that I still look back on I say man like what was that about?

It was about I think was like two or three years after he passed away and I was in my room again and he he was there and I was there and he's like I've been waiting a long time to give you this and then He took my hand and he pressed he put his hand on top of mine and his energy from him was flowing through him into me and It was it must it felt and most dreams I've had with him felt like,

You know,

30 seconds a minute This felt like five hours.

It's just a long long dream and I woke up and I was like what just happened Like it was just the most bizarre dream.

I had I haven't really shared that too much But because I still don't fully understand it But it was just a beautiful feeling and for him to say I've been waiting for a long time so I wouldn't know it was me like he's waiting for me or he needed to change and Need to learn some stuff to be able to do it.

So but it was such a crazy dream my last dream I had with them that was kind of was really vivid And that made me smile and made me just remember him was I was in my room I was probably like a year ago and he came up to me and he said,

You know Like is there anything you need and I said no dad.

I got everything I need right now I said,

You know,

Maybe maybe in a year.

I'll need a new computer and then he's like,

Okay and that was it It's a very simple dream But like he was it's almost like he was trying to take care of me and so it felt I felt like you know He was the father That I always wanted in that moment that he was like watching out for me and all that sort of stuff I was like wow and like I want to say too there was a point after Probably the first year or two that I didn't have these vivid dreams of him anymore and I thought okay like my griefs More or less healed maybe I just don't get these dreams anymore,

But they do still happen So which is very and they don't happen as frequently but you know,

Probably once a year I'll get one of these vivid dreams.

That is so cool.

And I got chills the whole time you're talking which is listeners,

Oh That's like a symbol for me of like this.

This is just really cool and that's just an authentic truth is being spoken So I think this is just so neat.

Is that like your spidey sense kind of yeah I guess so and I think it's really neat that that your dad in a way is Choosing to continue a relationship with you through dreams like through this other portal as opposed to like trying to find ways to To trigger you maybe to talk about grief think about grief or even think about him in Waking life and I know earlier you mentioned Working on grief and its relationship with being a man being male I would love to hear your experience as a man grieving a man as well I find that most men have a hard time processing emotions I think most people in general have a hard time really looking at emotions Just because it hurts,

You know,

It hurts to look at and express emotions in A productive or a healthy way and so what I see when it comes to men They tend to funnel a lot of their sadness into anger.

And so for me,

I funneled a lot of my emotions into Basketball and to because I could get really physical In the game and it helped sort of relieve some of those those tensions,

But at that time like for me I was a little bit different I was I could look at my emotions a little bit more than I I could I think I had Like previously just because I was on a journey of self Exploration after I had a different sort of kind of loss when a girlfriend Cheated on me before and that sort of catapulted me into sort of looking at my emotions a little bit more But so what so when this happened the men around me,

I guess the best way to put it I either came at the funeral But they didn't know how to talk to me.

They didn't sit me down,

You know,

They'd be like,

Hey have a beer And you're like,

Okay great.

Like is that the answer?

That must be the answer.

Drinking must be the answer.

I don't feel bad anymore But yeah so I think just they didn't know how to sort of Respond to that too and I think because I was young that my friends were young and they didn't have the loss either So it was just you know,

I can't expect you know looking back and you're like I couldn't expect anything more from them because of just what they've learned along the way and You know as as a male I didn't really express my emotions that much and so I didn't really cry I cried,

You know with my girlfriend but to anyone else I wasn't crying And so I was trying to be that figure that you have in my own mind of being a man and that's being like strong And you know,

I'm ready to take on the world and that's sort of what my dad was You know really about too and it kind of plagued him because he couldn't express his emotion So I think a lot of my ability to of what happened after loss was the especially That numbness was because I couldn't express it.

It was just too painful I didn't know how I didn't have the tools at that time,

But you know ever since then I can I think what's really interesting was When my father passed away,

It's actually it'll be 10 years and on January 12th so very very yeah,

So it'd be 10 years I remember had 10 years I was like I cried like a river and then After that,

I didn't cry I don't think I cried at all until my mom had a heart attack and then my tears were like acid and was it bring my Eyes,

But from that point on I was able to cry So like even after I cried for my dad's death,

I didn't cry The next four years or something four or five years just because it was so foreign to cry and And I had to sort of allow myself to get to that point.

I had actually work on Reducing the stigma of crying in my own mind.

So I think you know when it comes to the male perspective,

You know If you can cry man,

That's an amazing I think step at expressing even alone expressing your emotions and feeling them and Hopefully,

You know like as society moves forward,

You know You know men and as just everyone can do it cuz I know a lot of women who are like that They want to be I guess that masculine sort of tendency just to be strong to not show weakness in In a world where people you know can pry on that Of course if I'm gonna be strong for my family or for my kids or my friends or for my work or what have you?

That looks like fill in the blank not crying That's really interesting to me That's really fascinating to me your perspective on Being a man who's grieving and not being able to really expect more from the men in your life because people show up the best They possibly can especially in times of grief and crisis and then that whole not being able to cry I kind of want a segue now into what what dreams are for you what dreams mean for you?

How do you interpret your dreams when they come I guess it really depends on the feeling of the dream So the more vivid ones I like to sort of see them as an actual visitation from my father It it makes me smile and makes me still feel loved It makes me feel safe too But I know like just even like through my own research and stuff on the topic that not everyone will see that and people Just say it's a good dream and it just provide them a sense of love at that moment.

And that's that's totally cool So just because I believe the visitation I have no expectation that anyone else needs to believe that But there's other dreams like I recently had a dream.

It was last night actually where my dad was there's like this Storm that came through my house and the shingles were falling off and he went up on the on the roof And he was trying to fix the shingles and he was using a pizza box or whatever Dream that it wasn't really vivid and I just smile and it was kind of his Personality in the sense that he used to use duct tape for everything.

He didn't know how to like so So I brought back memories of that but like I wouldn't take that like a visitation type dream for me It's just a nice dream that when I woke up it helped me remember different other moments in his life and his personality style and I've had one dream that was very negative where he Was in downstairs and then when I opened the door he came running up with a knife and so I closed the door scared and he kicked the door down and Tried to stab me but the door was in the way and so like the knife was going through the door Wow yeah,

It's very very crazy and you know,

It's very like Scary to have that kind of dream and I know Along my journey a lot of people who have those people have those negative dreams and sometimes they they're repeated and sometimes people think those Are visitation so but for me,

I always look back on you know,

Like negative dreams like dreams in general reflect our waking life.

So Especially these negative dreams should be more common after after loss with comes to the deceased Even though they're not they should be just based on trauma research and stuff But anyway,

So when I had that dream I was actually working through some stuff about who my dad was in relation to why I had a different models of the world So emotions could be one thing why I saw women the way I did why I believed certain things about the world like the world was unsafe or people are at to get you like all those things were actually Ideas,

My dad had and I just adopted those right?

So at that time I understood that dream it wasn't really my dad,

But it was just a symbol for what was going on and In my especially being my upbringing he his own personality And those traits of his beliefs of the world being very negative Were like something trying to stab me and it is very scary and you move forward in the world very scared And so I looked at that I'm like,

Okay,

So these issues actually probably represent him and his model So I'm like,

What do I want to believe and so from that point on I was really looking at Who do I want to be in this world?

Not who does my father want me to be and so that really changed a lot and so I took that dream Very meaningful in the hands of where I was and how to proceed moving forward and like it said like when it comes to negative dreams like it's I Don't think people have dreams of their deceased dying again and stuff and it's just really sad that they have to go through that But there is a lot of information in there that can help you or help your counselor Figure out where they need to go in relation to what your blocks are What's kind of your process or maybe a recommended process for starting to?

Break these down and do kind of what you did and say how is this meaningful in my life?

What's the feeling that I'm getting what can I be open to learning from this?

Yeah,

It's a big question Cuz it's not something that you know,

I could just say in a sentence and people like bingo For if you have negative dreams the easiest way is just to contact me and I can help you work through those dreams I don't charge just something I love to do and so with that that's the easiest way if you let's say want dreams You're not having it.

My research is sort of showing that Maybe the reason why is because you know dreaming as often and so and that is a complication A lot of people who don't have dreams May put negative reasons on why they're not like the cease doesn't love them anymore Maybe they didn't make it to heaven like really some of these are just really bizarre Things and so I wanted to try to help people realize it maybe not be that Dream recall is very important for having dreams of the deceased which makes logical sense The more you remember your dreams more likely you may have one of the remember one of these dreams of deceased So for most people we're probably dreaming of the deceased more than we're actually remembering them And so if you do want to remember let's say more dreams with the deceased or if they're positive or whatever What you can do is start writing down your dreams or valuing them So if you do it in a recorder,

That's fine.

If you do it when you wake up That's fine,

Too But writing it down actually is showing that it actually can increase your dream recall for me personally when I heard about that I'm like,

Yeah,

I'm gonna do it And so I started doing it and I was remembering usually remember one dream a night The average is around two to three a week when I started doing it What happened was I was remembering like four dreams a night and I was getting way too Way too exhausted because you'd wake up and like oh I got a right to sound and you go back to bed But the downside of writing it down is if you do write it down sometimes wakes you up And so that's why people will use the recorder because they can keep their eyes closed So just a little tip on that front.

Yeah,

So so that's that I do want to mention actually one thing about my loss.

Yeah I never really I just kind of skipped over and I probably shouldn't have when my father passed away and the reason I think why we're going to the hockey game was because my birthday was in a couple days and so Looking back now because it's been 10 years.

And so yesterday I actually calculated my oh my god.

It's been 10 years and I realized like the whole my whole life journey in 10 years and what's happened But also like it brought me back to a memory of the day before like the day of my birthday I was picking out caskets of my father and I was like wow,

Like that's absolutely crazy that you know,

It's something I don't really think about but I can only understand when my birthday comes around those memories would also like be in there a little Bit just like the when it happened was pretty crazy to me But then also,

You know,

Like looking back now 10 years my birthday.

I'm there's this moment That I'm having where it's like look how far I've come and look where where this work Like what grief has brought me to in 10 years,

You know I guess I look back and there's like a you know a tear in my eye saying no it wasn't It wasn't for nothing,

You know and I think For me that's the biggest thing when it comes to my loss that when I look at it is that he didn't die for nothing It's kind of a beautiful tie-in to to one of my first questions about the fear of losing memories and not being able to get them back is That for as long as time continues on in your life and it's not just time that steals It's the actual action of reflecting back in your life But as more events happen in your life as more years happen as more milestones happen you get this wider lens With which to view your losses through and yeah,

That's just really cool and powerful I have the same relationship with my mom but with the Christmas season so every year another Christmas passes I attach it to how far have I come since her death and that's really and In the beginning,

It's really unfortunate that your birthday is so close to his death day But as time goes on,

Of course It's kind of a it's like a Google Calendar reminder in your phone of like oh it's time to reflect on how far you've come As well,

So it's an interesting and and really powerful Reframing of what those memories are to you and being able to summon them Back into the present moment.

I think it's that's why it's so difficult in the beginning because you can't really I think Reframe it in that way and it takes time and does take a lot of time for Grief to work its way through you and change you It's so you can have these moments where you can reflect back and say oh my god,

You know Like it wasn't for nothing and look at all look what I'm in like I can't believe I'm doing my PhD,

You know at Brock looking at these grief dreams like the thing that actually helped me I'm actually doing and helping other people and and people tell me their life stories because of it and I'm so grateful to people to Be a part of people's journey and to be able to have the compassion needed which I didn't really have prior And so I can provide that space now for others and I think that's the greatest gift you could ever gave me He could have survived he could have lived another,

You know,

40 years But if I wasn't this person I am today It wouldn't really been living.

I just been doing stuff.

So like his death was a catalyst for me To have more compassion for the world and to go deeper inside to try to understand who I was So if you gave me one last lesson,

You know in in his training,

I guess as a father He did a hell of a job obviously your relationship the dynamic has changed But it also really sounds like you feel differently about him.

I appreciate it more now because I see What his life has done for me back then like if you would have survived like I love that You know in the sense you get that I get that father-son bond that I never had,

You know But this is bigger than that,

You know Like for me to love myself and love the world is bigger than any kind of attachment You know bond for some that with someone else or identity with someone else like this is sort of I think my goal in life is to reach that because you see the impact you can have on the world and others and if He didn't if we didn't reconnect that's be interesting story because imagine if he just died and I was just still angry at him I would have a totally different Grief response and maybe this may not have his death may not have meant anything So it's be I think because we had that bond because I spend suffered and then because you know Like I learned so much about myself through the process I definitely I would say yeah,

Like I appreciate that and I actually look at his death almost even though it was you know accidental Almost like a sacrifice,

You know,

Like I see it as a sacrifice that He made for for me in a way to reach a higher level of I guess being or love I there's nothing more in my my heart I that you know Anyone's ever done for me in that way,

I guess to answer your question.

Yes I appreciate more than I did when we're together because when we're together I just saw him as like sort of a father and I was getting something that a child always wanted and this is just a Lot bigger than that It's so important for people to know I think that relationships not only continue after a loss But they can also grow and change being driven to make meaning out of what has happened And I think that's something that that you are very skilled and very adept at especially because now you've turned it into Something you're studying for your PhD,

Which is phenomenal.