You Are Loved - Episode 5 - Burnout

Hello.

My name is Liv Downing,

And you have joined me on the You Are Loved podcast.

You Are Loved is the title of my forthcoming children's book,

Due to be released in 2021.

And in this book,

I explore the possibility that love is actually always available to us.

And that maybe,

Just maybe,

We don't actually have to rely on external sources of love or other people to feel a sense of true belonging.

As you may know,

Research tells us that a sense of belonging or a deep sense of connection is really essential for us humans to thrive.

And in this series of podcasts,

I want to learn more about why that is and how we can all get more of it,

To nourish both ourselves,

Our kids,

And our beautifully broken world.

It's my deep hope that through these conversations,

It's together we can learn more about creating a more loving and wiser world.

Welcome to the You Are Loved podcast.

I'm really excited to be sharing this conversation with you today.

We talk all things burnout,

And I interview the amazing Clea Wallach.

Clea is a psychologist and has around 15 years of experience working within the corporate space as well.

And she shares with us her own personal experience of burnout and what she learned through that process and how she's made it her mission to help prevent burnout in others and then to support people to recover through that experience,

Both individuals and organizations.

She really shares with us how we can change our relationship with stress and how we can perhaps even allow ourselves,

Both in body and mind,

To process our stress more effectively.

She shares with us what burnout actually is and how the World Health Organization defines it,

And really highlights for us that it is ultimately our responsibility to process our stress effectively and to set really clear boundaries and take responsibility for our own health and wellbeing and the choices we make.

She finishes up by talking about her own journey of self-discovery and befriending herself really treating herself the way she would treat a friend and which as you know is the focus of this podcast really around connection.

She also touches on connection with others and how that's important both in the workplace and in our personal lives.

And then finishes up talking about some tips for both employees and employers to help our workplaces become safer and support ourselves and each other to not go through the experience of burnout or perhaps if we do to recover most effectively.

I hope you enjoy this conversation and you take some of the pearls of wisdom that Clea so generously has shared with us.

Hello,

Clea Wallage.

It's so good to see you.

It's great to be here.

So everybody,

Please meet dear Clea Wallage.

Clea is someone that I have worked parallel with over the years.

Interestingly we worked at the same organization,

But did we ever cross paths there?

Not really,

No.

No.

So,

But we've kind of been in touch and we've met each other through other areas.

And I wanted to invite you onto the You Are Love podcast today really to talk about your area of expertise,

Which is burnout mainly because I am seeing it off more and more often in my clinical work.

And I really wanted to get you and your amazing knowledge and experience to share with our listeners.

So Clea,

Tell us a bit about your business,

Which is called First Best and how that came about for you,

Your background.

Thank you.

So it came about because I experienced my own burnout and that resulted in me taking a 12 month career break from the corporate role that I'd been in for 11 years and then never returned.

And I think there's a number of reasons for why that happened,

Which I'm sure we'll talk about today.

But now my objective in life and my passion in life is to support others to build a better relationship with stress because we all experience stress.

Unfortunately,

We can't avoid it.

And in doing so,

In really kind of focusing on reducing stress,

It's fundamentally about ensuring that we don't reach the point of burnout because one of the core fundamentals of experiencing burnout is experiencing a prolonged period of chronic stress before you get to that point.

I love the way you've just reframed stress for us.

I think it's so tempting for so many of us,

Especially in my area,

Which is,

As you know,

Is mainly around mindfulness and meditation.

It's so tempting for us to come to this work saying,

I just want to get rid of the stress.

I just want to get rid of the stress.

And as you and I know from our experience that stress is part of life.

It's part of being human and we need it to keep us alive.

Completely.

There's actually good stress.

It's called eustress,

Which is a bit of a strange word to say,

But it gets us out of bed in the morning.

It prepares us.

It supports us to be high achievers,

To get our to-do list done,

Et cetera,

To meet time frames.

So stress is really good,

But kind of like negative emotions,

We've been brought up or society has created this situation whereby stress and negative emotions are seen as bad.

Oh,

Wow.

That's such an empowering way to look at our relationship with these two fundamentally human experiences.

Thank you for that.

And the interlink between those two things.

So when we experience negative emotions,

Suppressing them or ignoring them and not allowing them to do their thing is what can,

Is fundamentally linked to then increasing your stress levels as well.

It's so true.

Isn't it?

It's that repressing.

It's like holding,

I used to play water polo when I was young and energetic and vibrant.

And it's like holding a water polo ball under the water.

And then,

You know,

You push it down,

You push it down,

You push it down and then it just explodes.

Explode at some point,

You can't hold it down forever.

And tell us,

Claire,

Is that kind of what happened to you?

Were you,

You know,

You were doing,

You were juggling this big job and you were trying to,

You know,

Be all things to all people.

And then the water polo ball just went poo choom.

Yeah,

Definitely.

So I would say that,

Well,

I have three young kids under four and was,

Had,

You know,

In terms of my workplace,

As I mentioned,

I've been there for 11 years.

I had come in and out after pregnancy leaves,

Et cetera,

But I didn't really have very long pregnancy leaves at all.

Think my third child,

I had six weeks off and then went straight back into work.

And so I,

And that was my decision.

There was no pressure from the organisation in relation to that.

That was my decision.

I loved work.

I thrived off work.

I worked long hours.

I travelled a lot.

And over time,

And we'll talk about some of the key symptoms,

Some of the key risk factors that lead to burnout.

But over time I was just,

I just had way too much on my plate.

And I would say it was probably a 12 month period of chronic stress.

And then kind of the last six months of that,

I would say that I was experiencing burnout in its full force for six months before I finally went,

I can't do this anymore,

Which was really challenging for me.

And I think really challenging for most people that experience burnout because of the personality factors that do lead or increase your chances of experiencing burnout.

So perfectionism,

High achievers,

Conscientious,

Loyal,

Slightly neurotic,

Like to be in control,

Et cetera.

We're both nodding our heads.

I don't know anyone who demonstrates those characteristics.

So when that's naturally you,

Right?

When you then get to a point of burnout and you're sinking,

Like I was sinking well and truly I just felt like a complete failure.

And so it was,

It was really challenging.

And I was also,

And also I'm sure talk about this more based on obviously the focus of your podcast,

But the more that I was struggling,

The harder I was on myself.

So it was,

Why is this happening to you?

Why is your body failing you?

Why is your mind failing you?

Why can't you do this?

And it was,

I've got to work harder.

I've got to push harder.

It was all of the symptoms that I was having,

I saw as a weakness and there was a real level of frustration and or anger.

That's such an important point.

And I think you've touched on two really important things there.

And the first one is around the characteristics that you just described,

Those personality characteristics are actually supported by our society and especially by our employers,

They love perfectionists.

They love conscientious people because we,

You and I have ourself proclaimed both of these.

We work late,

We work hard,

We're passionate.

We love people.

We adore what we do.

And so I wonder whether there's a fundamental societal and organisational shift that has to happen around how we reward and we'll select and reward people.

Yeah.

And I think that,

I think that that,

You know,

Understanding if you have that personality type is,

Is important,

But then the other two factors that lead to burnout being lifestyle factors,

But then also,

And it depends,

I should say I had work related burnout,

But there is also parental burnout as well.

And there's not a stack of research around that.

Most of it is,

Is around work related burnout.

But for,

For that,

There are key factors that,

That you will experience in within the workplace that is then leading to that chronic stress,

As well as the fact that you've got the personality type to push yourself and then the lifestyle factors of I'm just going to work hard.

I am not going to prioritise my wellbeing.

I'm not going to prioritise sleep and,

You know,

Some of those really fundamental elements as well.

So I completely agree that there's not a lot,

I think in terms of knowledge,

Yes,

From an organisational perspective,

Knowledge of those more higher risk personality types.

Yes,

It's really important.

But then I also think knowledge of the types of factors within the workplace and the situations that people might experience within the workplace.

Those things are really important for managers to be such important information,

Especially now the world of work has changed so dramatically.

The second point you touched on was really that self compassion.

You know,

You talked a little bit about you just left yourself over and over again because you put other people before yourself,

Which is why you've now named your consulting business first best,

Which I love.

So we've talked already a little bit about burnout.

We've used the word and you know,

It is a bit of a buzz phrase around at the moment.

So I would love to hear from you,

Claire,

What your definition is.

How do you describe what burnout is?

Well,

What we were talking about before we started recording,

I think is important because it has become a bit of a buzzword.

And I do think we need to be really careful around that of not just using it when you're feeling tired or feeling a bit flustered or,

Or,

And or feeling a little bit stressed and out of control.

There is the World Health Organization last year in May classified burnout for the first time and they classified it as a syndrome at the moment,

Specifically in relation to work related.

So at this stage,

There's nothing specific that they've talked about in terms of parental.

But I think it's a good start.

But since then,

There's been further research done.

And I think that that adds a lot more additional relevance and significance,

I guess,

To to the syndrome.

So the World Health Organization talks about it in terms of exhaustion and energy depletion.

And I think that it's really key to be clear with that.

That's not I've had three kids under four.

I've had many a sleepless night.

But when you've got the level of exhaustion whereby,

If you then get a good night's sleep,

You wake up feeling fresh and yeah,

You know,

Life is good again.

That's not the type of exhaustion we're talking about with this.

So the level of exhaustion is even if I get a 10 12 hour sleep,

I wake up and don't feel like feel like I can get out of bed.

And that was definitely true for me.

It was just waking up and just feeling tired to my bones and not knowing how I was going to get started with my day.

So and,

And you hear about people that then get to the point of starting their burnout recovery journey.

And you hear that they literally can't get out of bed for weeks,

Some people months and you know that,

You know,

Six months is just not leaving their apartment or not leaving home because they are just that tired.

Really interesting because I think you know,

Traditionally when we talk about burnout,

We look at it as a mental condition.

But what I'm hearing you say is it's very physiological as well.

Oh God,

It is so physical.

And,

You know,

I'm a psychologist,

I've spent my as a you know,

This conversation,

I spent most of my life in my head and you know,

That's what I was trained to do.

And definitely also what I kind of felt more comfortable doing,

We spend our we spend our lives in our head.

And so in terms of symptoms,

I had my body was screaming at me,

It was so bloody old,

You know,

Like you look back on it now I even was saying,

You know,

Six,

Seven healthcare professionals trying to ban thousands of dollars,

Hours of time,

Many terrible remedies,

And you know,

All this kind of stuff.

And everyone was saying to me,

You are burned out,

You are chronically stressed.

There's only so much that we can do until you make changes.

But even then,

You know,

With all of these physical symptoms,

So kind of reverting back and we'll talk about some of those symptoms in a minute,

But reverting back,

The second one is around depersonalization or an increase of mental distancing from your work and,

And or if we're talking about parental from your children,

And that can can really look,

You can start to develop more negative feelings towards so this real,

You know,

For me,

It was,

You know,

I was always so passionate,

I was also always so striving,

I've built so believed in what we did,

Etc.

And I got to the point where I was questioning all of that,

You know,

Getting frustrated with,

You know,

Small things that were happening and this kind of disconnection of self from the situation.

Clea,

That's so interesting to hear you say that word.

I'm so thrilled that you've used it given the topic.

Because it is that,

You know,

As you know,

I,

My first experience of burnout was when I was 23.

And I was working in mental health.

And I was so passionate about mental health.

And I was working with young people.

And,

You know,

I was,

I wasn't qualified,

Then I was a graduated psychologist,

I still had to do my supervision.

And so I'd learned about burnout in a textbook.

But I didn't know about it until I was sitting in front of a client.

And they were telling me that they were so unwell that they were suicidal.

And the only thought that I could have is just don't do it on my shift.

Because I couldn't,

I could not even access my heart at that point.

I was so exhausted.

And it's that disconnection,

That disconnection from our full self,

From our full humanity,

And therefore our disconnection from other people.

We're passionate about.

So true.

Yeah.

Oh,

Wow.

And I just think it's,

When you're also in that state,

You're floundering.

And as I mentioned earlier,

I just felt like the biggest failure.

So I didn't want to connect with people.

I was feeling so crap,

But I was also feeling so crap about myself.

Yes.

So,

You know,

It just makes you retract from everything.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And the third one?

Was there a third one?

So the third one is then a sense of reduced effectiveness from a performance perspective.

And whether that's actually true or not,

I think the things like brain fog,

For me,

Another symptom that I had,

Which was my absolute number one symptom that I really struggled with was brain fog because I have written before it clouded every single decision that I had to make.

And I remember a staff member of mine being away at a point in time and I needed to jump in and do some of her responsibilities.

And these were responsibilities that were,

I had done thousands of times before and were very streamlined and I couldn't even do them.

I literally was questioning myself,

Doubting myself,

Making these small tasks like horrific in my mind around how I was going to execute them.

And so,

But at the same time,

I think because so many high performers and high achievers are the ones that experienced burnout sometimes to others,

If we push ourselves even harder,

Which is then pushing us even further into burnout,

But others mightn't see that that change at all times.

Yeah.

You know what,

Clea,

I think you're spot on.

Over the last two days,

I have had conversations with three people who've spoken about feelings of exhaustion and feeling tired.

And then in the next breath,

They've said to me,

So I went to bed or so I took a day off and I was like,

Oh my gosh,

You are amazing.

How good are you at self-management?

Because it's taken me many,

Many years to work that out.

And that I shouldn't just keep working through the fogginess.

I should just stop.

It's like,

No dare.

Like it's obvious.

I know.

And so what's that about?

Is that about the way we're raised or is that the birth order?

I mean,

Where are you in the birth order in the family?

Are you the oldest?

Oh,

You're the only child.

There you go.

See,

I'm the oldest.

And I do think that,

You know,

And we're both parents.

So we,

I'm very mindful of the way I'm parenting my kids for sure.

But I do think with the first born,

They're often more conscientious,

They're more perfectionistic,

They're more neurotic.

And it's just because 100% my eldest daughter,

You've just named birth order,

Personality type,

Once again,

Definitely a way that I was raised to be the responsible one,

The one that,

You know,

And encouraged to be like that.

And I can now say,

You know,

I'm really trying,

You know,

Doing a lot of work at the moment around trying not to do that more with my oldest daughter.

You mentioned to me that you're reading the Norgoske sisters book at the moment,

Which I have also previously read.

And it's a,

It's an awesome book for anyone that's interested,

Not just in terms of burnout,

And it's called burnout.

But the more important element is it's called completing the stress cycle.

And that is something that all of us need to learn and to be aware of.

And we can definitely talk about that more.

Let's do it now.

Tell us,

Tell me more about what,

You know,

What that means.

And then maybe some of the tips in either preventing and then maybe treating or managing burnout that both they talk about and also you recommend with your clients.

Yeah.

And so in terms of that first off,

Really important here to make the distinction between prevention and recovery.

Because recovery of burnout is not just about putting in work in terms of the prevention strategies.

So recovery was,

Is a fairly quick,

Not simple,

But quick way to describe.

And it's not quick in terms of length,

That's for sure.

In terms of actually recovering from burnout,

But in describing it for most people,

Recovery from burnout is rest.

It's just,

That's the fundamental first element is rest.

And then it's the implementation of self care strategies focused around your energy levels.

So energy management is absolutely key.

But in terms of prevention,

Prevention is stress management strategies basically.

And the whole piece there is obviously in with burnout,

As we've talked about,

It comes from having a period of prolonged chronic stress.

And so that's what we don't want to experience.

And in order to not experience that,

We need to do two things.

One we need to burn off built up stress in our body,

Because we all have that already.

And the best way to do that really simple,

But really annoying is cardio.

It's so annoying.

It's so annoying.

It really is annoying,

But it's cardio exercise.

And that doesn't have to mean going for a run,

Which is in some ways the best cardio exercise that you can get,

But run or a cycle or whatever,

Swim,

Et cetera,

Whatever gets your heart rate up.

But it could be playing your favorite tunes in the lounge room at full belt and dancing,

Having a really good dance off regularly though.

So this piece is that you kind of want to be doing this daily to be burning off the built up.

And that's such a shift,

Isn't it?

Because I don't know about you,

But I was always trained and I'd always learned that exercise is so I can be skinny.

You know,

I need to be able to fit into my bikinis.

That's what I'm exercising.

But over the 20 years of working in mental health,

I now understand the mind and body connected surprise,

Surprise,

And there's so many more reasons that we benefit and we need to be doing exercise.

This is your work.

It's you know,

We're put together as humans.

It's part of our evolution.

And that's the key thing I think even just more fundamentally is understanding stress and what it does to your body.

You release hormones and I'm not going to go into all that the technical side of it today,

But you release hormones that then if you're in a constant state of stress,

They're constantly getting released.

And so historically everyone's heard of the fight and flight response,

Et cetera.

You know,

Historically you,

If you were faced with a stressor,

You would fight it or run away and that would burn off those hormones that have been released.

And so in today's society,

When we get a really angry email from a client or from a manager,

That is a stressor.

And we have stuff like that.

You know,

You're trying to walk into a meeting and you get a phone call and your child's sick and you need to go and pick them up.

Particularly these days of smaller side of a runny nose and you know,

You're having to be there and that's a stressor.

But we're not running.

We're not then going,

Okay,

You know,

I've had that today.

I need to go and burn it off.

We're not fighting because it's keep it together,

Keep it together,

Keep it together.

You know,

Just suppress,

Suppress,

Suppress.

Don't talk about it.

Don't cry.

Like you wouldn't want to cry because that's emotion.

Which is another thing that we,

You know,

Is an important thing to talk about.

But it's,

Yeah,

It is so essential to actually understand that you do have to do something with that stress.

You actually are responsibility to our bodies to process that stress out.

Yep.

Otherwise it builds up and builds up and builds up and then the volleyball or the water polo ball explodes because the system just can't handle it.

Which takes back to what we said at the very beginning is that burnout is a physiological condition as well as a mental condition,

But it's the physiology we need to deal with.

What are some other tips around prevention?

So the cardio exercise.

Yeah,

So going back to the Nagoski sisters that I was talking about in terms of their recommendations and there's an awesome,

If you don't want to read the book,

There's an awesome podcast with them with Brene Brown as well,

Which I really recommend your listeners to listen to.

Their recommendations of completing the stress cycle are,

So movement,

Number one,

Cardio is best.

Breathing.

So breathing is all about,

And this is just something that we should be doing daily,

Is all about relaxing our nervous system and telling our body that everything's okay.

That there isn't a lion in front of us,

That we will be able to get through this situation.

But as soon as we start to get stressed,

We hold our breath or our breathing quickens.

And in doing so,

That further tells the body,

It's like this cycle,

It further tells the body that something's wrong and therefore more stress hormones are released.

And so it's so essential and you'd be more of an expert in this space than me,

Leave with all of your background,

But it's so essential to be mindful of breath.

And I recommend to all of my clients that it's not just about when you're faced with a stressful situation or you find yourself holding your breath,

That you should focus on some breathing and breath practice.

You should be doing these throughout the day proactively as well.

Yeah,

Absolutely.

Third is positive social interaction,

Tells your body that it's safe.

The fourth is laughter,

But like a really good belly laugh.

Like how can you be stressed when you're having an awesome belly laugh?

And that supports us to regulate our emotions.

The fifth is affection.

And this is like a 20 second hug or a six second kiss.

It's like actually intentional connection where you pause,

Where you hold.

Funny story for you on that.

I,

So as you know,

As we all do,

I'd say most of us do everything that I learn and read,

I then try and implement into my own life.

And so my poor husband is the guinea pig for most of the things.

I'm pretty sure he would have liked that.

Well,

I'm not sure.

But the other day I gave him a hug and we stood there and we were hugging and then we kind of,

We broke apart after about 10 or 15 seconds.

And my seven year old said,

Hey,

You two back together.

That was only 15 seconds.

You need to hold for at least 20.

And I thought,

Awesome,

My job is done.

My kids know that they need to hug for 20 to 30 seconds.

Oh,

That's beautiful.

So lovely.

I love that.

I love that.

And so,

And in doing so that comes the body,

It's beautiful.

It releases good hormones as well.

Yeah.

The body stuff.

Yeah.

So in those,

In that then improves mood,

Obviously six,

A real good cry.

Why do we stop ourselves from crying?

The number of people that I've heard recently say that they've had to learn how to cry.

And you know,

Like,

I just,

I find that so it was good that they're doing it finally,

But I do find that so upsetting crying is your body saying,

This is what I need right now to release,

To release this experience,

This emotion,

This stress.

And it's,

Well,

I shouldn't say it's easy.

It's not easy for everyone,

But you can kind of walk into the toilet at work and,

You know,

Have a good old cry.

And it is,

If you've,

When you've done that and you've experienced that,

You instantly feel a release.

Yep.

Such a release.

Absolutely.

Such good tips to help us.

And the seventh one,

It's the last one is creative expression.

So you're using,

It doesn't have to be art,

Music,

Et cetera.

Being able to process your emotions in a more creative artistic way.

So I love those,

But you know,

In addition around the prevention piece,

Obviously being able to,

Over the course of your day,

Focus on the present,

Our brain lives in past and future constantly and meditation,

Which is a incredible tool in cultivating mindfulness as well.

But also self exploration and self-love as well.

Which brings me to my next question.

You touched on it earlier when you were talking about the creative expression,

You know,

That sense of kind of learning how to hold and express our emotions.

And yes,

Meditation has definitely provided that for me,

Which is really the birthplace of this podcast.

It was about understanding that love is always available.

I don't have to rely on other people or success at work to feel love.

It's actually within me.

So I'm interested to hear about what you're learning,

What you've learned around this capacity to come home to ourselves,

This capacity to connect deeply with ourselves and how that can,

How can we help others to do that?

Oh,

Liv,

That I think we could probably talk about that for an hour.

And I will profess to also say that for all of us,

I should say,

I shouldn't just put myself in this category.

It's an ongoing journey.

Absolutely.

So I'm nearly just finished a six month mentorship in my own fullness.

And I completely agree with you in terms of meditation has been absolutely fundamental for me because there's been a lot of time.

Not a lot of times for a lot of my life,

I haven't really loved myself and I haven't been connected to myself.

I've lived with this,

These expectations that I've created for myself and that society has created for myself around how I think I should be.

And Renee Brown talks about this so beautifully when she talks about shame and she says that for women,

We've got this unobtainable,

Conflicting,

Competing expectations about who we're supposed to be.

And she says it,

And I'm reading this because I just love this.

It looks like I need to do it all,

Do it perfectly and never let anyone see me struggle.

And that is me,

Just read that.

And I was like,

That is how I have lived my life.

And so it hasn't been this kindness and this connection to self and meditation completely changed that for me.

When I say made,

I've done courses where I've been made to do 45 minute body scans and et cetera,

Just excruciating.

And you're laughing because you know exactly what this is like.

And at the beginning it was absolutely excruciating to be in my body.

But how crazy is that?

That it's excruciating to be with yourself.

Oh,

Wow.

And Clea,

This is the thing that so many people experience when they first come to meditation.

And they say,

Well,

I can't do it.

It's no good.

It was uncomfortable.

But actually,

Wow,

If we can get through that,

If we can get through that agony,

Because it is,

It can be,

Not for everybody,

But it can be.

Wow,

What a gift lies at the end of that.

What a gift,

This capacity to be with and to be on our own team,

To be with ourselves.

It's just,

Yeah.

It's been a life changer.

Life changer,

Right?

And this is coming from someone with a psych degree and all the academics,

You know,

And I feel the same,

You know,

Psych is amazing.

And I have committed my career and will continue to love and work in this space.

But there is something that we need that psych,

Traditional psych can't necessarily give us.

And now I crave that.

I find myself now when I'm having lots more,

Particularly now coming out of lockdown,

Et cetera,

More social interaction,

Et cetera.

I then go,

Oh,

I just need some time for me.

And it's not a,

I just need to be in the house and have some quiet time.

It's no,

I need to tune in.

I need to recalibrate.

I need to go back into myself and ask myself,

What do I need right now?

Because then I'm,

You know,

I'm getting much better at that,

Being able to do that throughout the day to experience something and go,

Oh,

Okay.

I'm reacting to that.

What do I need right now?

Et cetera.

Which is also that,

That loving kindness and connection to self.

That when I do think when,

When you are just naturally busy and going from one thing to the next,

Which so many of us are having those times where it's actually focused and concentrated on doing that is really.

Yeah,

Absolutely.

And this is around,

Cause as I mentioned earlier,

I'm seeing a lot of burnout within my clinical practice.

And I'd love to hear some tips on what to do.

First of all,

First,

So three questions,

What to do if someone's feeling like they might be burnt out.

What to do if they take time off work and then for the organisations,

How can organisations support people through this experience?

Okay.

So what to do if you're feeling burnt out.

So I think it is important to speak to someone and to talk about what your symptoms are and seek support definitely is absolutely key.

We've talked about the fact that rest is fundamental and in terms of rest,

It is.

And I think that in terms of working with people,

It's so different based on people's different situations,

You know,

So for some people,

It might only be able to be,

I could get a day for myself on a weekend based on children and work and those types of situations.

For others,

It might be no,

Which I would recommend is going right.

Can you schedule a weekend every at least a month away for yourself where it's just complete rest.

Now that is if you're at the situation,

The point of burnout where you are still somewhat functioning at work,

But if you're not,

If you've gotten to a point where it's really a diem,

Like for me,

It was,

I knew by the point where I got to,

I knew that having a week off or a month off just wasn't going to do it for me.

And I should say with that,

That rest and what we didn't talk about before in terms of the things to do when experiencing chronic stress or burnout is sleek is such a priority.

And so yeah,

The rest factor is absolutely critical as well as setting boundaries.

So the setting of boundaries is really important.

It might be that you need to go,

You know what,

I can only commit energy from nine to five and I need to force myself not to work longer hours than that and or check my emails.

I was checking my emails first thing in the morning.

It was the last thing that I did at night as well.

It just gave me no time to rest and recharge.

And if you think about that from a physiological perspective,

What,

What we're doing when we do that,

And as we know,

Partly because of COVID and partly because of the society we live in,

The boundaries are very blurred between work and home,

But what we're doing is we're stimulating the nervous system,

The fight flight response.

And sometimes that can be quite addictive for me.

So it's that anxiety,

That gentle flow of anxiety,

Which releases the cortisol and it's this,

You know,

There's kind of a bit of a hit there.

But then if we do that for too long,

We know what happens.

And so I think boundaries is one of is such an important tip for people both if they feel like they're going through burnout,

And then once they go back to the workplace,

If they choose to,

Which could you talk a bit about that?

What other tips do you have for organisations and individuals?

You know,

If they go back,

It's back to work.

So I think,

And there's a lot of tips for managers,

I actually run a session around supporting managers to reduce burnout within the workplace.

But ultimately,

The responsibility has to be with the individual like it,

It just has to be because it's your body,

It's your experience and situation that you're going through.

And that's kind of a bit of pill to swallow,

Right?

And I,

You know what,

Thank you for saying that,

Because you know what,

I actually found myself when I first when I was first kind of exploring once I finished up work,

What on earth,

It was everyone,

All these specialists talking to me about and because I kind of finally started to listen and I started exploring into burnout more in a lot more depth.

I remember reading very early on that you contribute to your own burnout,

Like so obvious.

And I remember being pissed off about that.

I wanted someone to blame.

But in the beginning,

I wanted someone to blame because there was a lot of stuff going on from a workplace situation as well.

But it was,

You have to take personal responsibility,

No matter what the situation is at work.

And that's not that's not saying to organisations and managers that you can treat your people terribly etc.

But you as a as an individual need to stand up for what you're prepared to take and what you're prepared to do.

And if it's an environment that is very,

Very encouraging and role models,

Really long work hours and is very,

Very high pressure,

And that's,

You know,

The way that it with limited support and you know,

Not much clarity over work,

All those types of things,

Then yes,

The first thing that I would do would be to encourage you to have conversations internally about that.

But ultimately,

It needs to then come down to you whether or not you make a decision and you make the call of is this what I'm prepared to,

To continue to do is this.

I guess,

You know,

That really comes from a place of self love,

Doesn't it?

It comes from a place of respecting ourselves,

And knowing that we are actually the boss of ourselves.

We so many of us spend so much of our life outsourcing the responsibility for our happiness and our well being to other people.

And if not other people to having the fabulous job or the great car or the wonderful house or the skinny legs or whatever is important for us.

But actually,

It's this real,

It's this internal sense of,

I remember saying this to a client once,

It's valuing ourselves more than we value the opinion others have of us.

Yes,

100%.

And it's like,

A small example of that is allowing your diary to get filled up with back to back meetings every day.

Now,

One thing that obviously leads to stress and therefore burnout is energy depletion.

So when you don't,

When you're just constantly on and not allowing yourself time to recharge,

And so you need to own your diary.

Yes,

There's going to be some times where there is a meeting that is certain people that need to be in that meeting,

And it can't be moved.

But there is always flex and buffer around those meetings that you can put into your diary.

But it's your responsibility to make sure that you have a lunch break.

It's your responsibility to make sure that you have 15 minute breaks here and there through throughout the day and not feeling them going,

Oh,

I've got a 15 minute break.

Oh,

But I'll just do my emails instead.

It's walking away from your desk and going and have a breather.

Yeah.

So I'm seeing things like scheduling 45 minute instead of 60 minutes.

And you know,

Things things that we can control and,

You know,

I wonder,

Clea,

Whether as women,

It part of it's the way we're raised,

Which is to placate and to help and to serve and to give and to nurture and they're all wonderful female characteristics.

Yes,

But I do think and what I'm seeing in in the media and in leadership programs and in society is women are starting to really take responsibility for their own wellbeing and offer the wonderful things we can as leaders,

But putting real clear boundaries in place.

And we need to be teaching our girls that.

Yes.

100% agree with that.

Yeah.

From a manager perspective,

You're the role model,

Right?

So if you're working crazy hours and sending emails at all times of night,

That's what you're no matter what you say about that,

No matter if you say,

Don't worry,

You don't have to respond to that's the environment that you're creating.

So think about how you're coming across to your staff members.

Yeah.

But,

You know,

The one of the key things as well,

And this leads to the connection pays is the importance of really truly actually getting to know your employees.

And I think the one on ones have become in some ways and in some organizations annoyances and a tick and flick exercise of,

You know,

Right,

Just need to meet with this person find out.

And it's very task and work related focus.

And so,

You know,

The opportunity to actually,

I encourage people to managers in their one on ones to start with,

How are you,

How are you going?

How are things more?

And you don't have to go personal,

Personal,

Depending on the,

You know,

The,

The relationship,

But just beyond work,

How's everything going,

You know,

At the moment and going in with the idea of that you want to walk away from every one on one,

Knowing one new thing about your staff member,

Because that sense of connection is so important.

Even if it gets to the point where the person is really stressed or it's moving towards burnout,

That employees more likely to talk to their manager about it.

If there's that relationship and as a manager,

You're more likely to be able to be more in tune and to pick up things with your employee,

If you know more.

Oh,

Absolutely.

Such a Pearl,

A bit of advice,

Seriously,

I think,

And you know,

I,

I hear this in the work I do with organizations and with groups that,

That,

That as employees,

And I know,

You know,

When I worked with an organization,

I wanted people to know the whole of me,

Not just that I was great at interpreting psych tests,

Or I was great at selling recruitment skills,

You know,

To know the whole of me and to,

You know,

Bring your whole self to work because you're going to get the performance from your team,

But also the wellbeing and that safety net.

And that's where vulnerability comes in and Brené's come up a lot in our conversation.

And obviously she's the expert in that area.

Claire,

Tell us a little bit about what you do,

What services you offer and how people can find out a bit more about what you do.

So yes,

As you mentioned,

My business name is First Best,

And that's all about putting yourself first because we can't be our best for others if we're not our best for ourselves.

And so I work with people one-on-one from a coaching perspective,

And I also work with corporates offering stress management workshops and burnout prevention and management workshops as well.

Fantastic.

And your website is?

Firstbest.

Com.

Au.

Perfect.

What a winner that you got to get that.

Yes,

That's right.

And also probably important to mention,

I do most of my content and socials on Instagram as well.

So if you want to follow me,

I'm at underscore first dot best underscore.

So that one's not as good as the First Best.

Com.

No,

Definitely not.

Not nearly as good.

And I also noticed on your website,

You've got a whole heap of free resources as well,

Which is fantastic.

So people can download fact sheets and things like that.

So thank you.

I'm currently putting together some resources as well around for individuals,

As well as for corporates around working with people that have experienced burnout and then reentering into the workplace as well.

Yeah,

Fantastic.

I think we're all going to need it in the coming months and years as we transition out of COVID land and back into whatever the new normal is going to look like.

Definitely.

Claire,

Thank you so much for joining us today and for sharing your wisdom and your experience with such honesty and compassion.

And you know,

We're all in this together,

Aren't we this journey and it's we're all and as you said,

It's an ongoing journey with no end really.

It's just a matter of us supporting each other through this.

And yeah,

Thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you for having me.